Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1741207
NorthSouth wrote: There are some airfields where that could be a significant constrain on arrival/departure routes.


It depends what you mean by constraints. The exemption for take-off and landing is there to allow pilots to depart and arrive via the standard or published routes, not those that take their fancy.
#1741221
NorthSouth wrote:All good stuff people. But my question was about the 1000ft rule over congested areas bit of SERA.5005(f), not the 500ft rule bit. :) There are some airfields where that could be a significant constrain on arrival/departure routes.
NS


You asked in your Original Post:
"would any congested areas within an ATZ be excepted from the rule?"

And the obvious answer is yes, it would. Otherwise the airfield would not be allowed to be there.
#1741336
David Wood wrote:
It is a slightly grey area. The CAA have issued recent guidance in which they imply that the 500' rule need not apply when, inter alia, practising PFLs. But as far as I am aware there has not been any definitive exemption granted.

.

They issued an exemption. See my link in 2nd post on this thread.
And for everyone else who didn't open it, it includes congested areas.

I'll requote it below. SERA 3105 is congested areas.
ATZ is immaterial. Transiting an ATZ or anywhere else doesn't have an exemption but approach and landing do.


Official Record Series 4 No 1174 General Permissions
Standardised European Rules of the Air – Exceptions to the Minimum Height Requirements
1) Definition
In these permissions:
a) ‘SERA’ means the Annex to Commission Implementing Regulation (EU) No. 923/2012 (‘the
Standardised European Rules of the Air’ (and references to SERA followed by a number mean the
corresponding provision of SERA)).
b) ‘licensed aerodrome’ means an aerodrome licensed under the Air Navigation Order 2009 or an
aerodrome certificated under Commission Regulation (EU) No.139/2014 of 12 February 2014 and
c) ‘Government aerodrome’ means any aerodrome in the United Kingdom which is in the occupation of any
Government Department or visiting force (as defined in article 255(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2009).
d) ‘notified’ has the same meaning as in article 255(1) of the Air Navigation Order 2009.
2) General (SERA.5005(f)(2))
a) The Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) permits, under SERA.3105 and SERA.5005(f), subject to the condition
set out in subparagraph (b), an aircraft to fly elsewhere than as specified in SERA.5005(f)(1) at a height of:
i) less than 150 metres (500 feet) above the ground or water; or
ii) less than 150 metres (500) above the highest obstacle within a radius of 150 metres (500 feet) from
the aircraft.
b) The aircraft must not be flown closer than 150 metres (500 feet) to any person, vessel, vehicle or
structure except with the permission of the CAA.
3) Approaches to Landing or Forced Landings
The Civil Aviation Authority permits, under SERA.3105, SERA.5005(f) and SERA.5015(b), an aircraft to fly
below the heights specified in SERA.5005(f) and SERA.5015(b) if it is flying in accordance with normal
aviation practice and:
a) practising approaches to land at or checking navigational aids or procedures at an aerodrome;
b) practising approaches to forced landing other than at an aerodrome if it is not flown closer than 150metres (500 feet) to any person, vessel, vehicle or structure; or
c) flying in accordance with a notified procedure or when specifically authorised by the CAA in
accordance with SERA.5015.
#1741337
riverrock wrote:ATZ is immaterial. Transiting an ATZ or anywhere else doesn't have an exemption but approach and landing do.


I was going to make a similar point. If you're taking off/landing according to normal aviation practice, which includes low level turns, bad weather circuits, etc, then that's covered. Buzzing your friend's house, because it happens to be in an ATZ, isn't.
#1741345
Rules for national PtF aircraft were modified last year and the regulation now no longer refers to licensed or government aerodromes, just the practice of taking-off and landing "in accordance with normal aviation practice". ORS1315 states:

Overflights of Congested Area Conditions on UK National Permits to Fly

1) The Civil Aviation Authority (‘the CAA’), on behalf of the United Kingdom and pursuant to article 266 of the Air Navigation Order 2016 (‘the ANO’), exempts aircraft issued with a UK National Permit to Fly, from Article 41(3)(a) with respect to any condition in the Permit prohibiting the aircraft from flying over any assembly of persons or any congested area of a city, town or settlement, provided that the following condition is observed:

Aircraft must not be flown over any assembly of persons or any congested area of a city or town, except:

i. to the extent necessary in order to take-off and land in accordance with normal aviation practice; or ii. when operating in accordance with an appropriate air traffic control instruction or routing; or iii. with the permission of the Civil Aviation Authority.

2) This exemption is granted subject to the following conditions:

a) All other existing conditions on the Permit must be complied with; and

b) the aircraft is flown under and in accordance with a valid Permit to Fly supported by a current Certificate of Validity.

3) This exemption has effect from the date it is signed until revoked.

Rachel Gardner-Poole for the Civil Aviation Authority
25 September 2019
#1741365
Not quite. The LAA PtF fleet (or at least the vast majority of types) were exempted a few years ago.

The LAA's guidance (TL 2.07) states:

In some cases, LAA aircraft are not allowed to fly over any assembly of persons, at any height except to the extent necessary in order to take-off or land from a government or licensed aerodrome, in accordance with normal aviation practice, However following successful negotiation with the CAA, in the majority of cases the Permit to Fly either does not include this restriction or owners can apply to have the restriction removed. Of course, the normal rules of the air must still be observed, including retaining the capability to glide clear and maintaining minimum clearances from obstacles. See your Permit to Fly document for the details applicable to the individual aircraft concerned, and historical note below

Historical note: Before July 2010, Permit aircraft were not allowed to fly over congested areas. A CAA exemption was then issued (E3175, or as renewed) that allowed certain permit aircraft (microlight aeroplanes, amateur-built aeroplanes up to 1500 kg, and factory-built aeroplanes up to 1500 kg that were previously on a Certificate of Airworthiness) to overfly congested areas, subject to the normal rules of the air being observed. These rules include retaining the capability to glide clear and maintaining minimum clearances with obstacles. This exemption did not apply when test flying or check-flying the aircraft. The exemption overrode any statement to the contrary in existing Permit to Fly documents. In February 2012 the exemption was superseded by Information Notice IN-2012/003, which made the arrangement permanent.


This IN didn't include CAA PtF aircraft, however, and so last year's amendment now aligns both PtF categories, and as you say, essentially affords them the same overflight privileges as certified light aircraft.
riverrock liked this
#1741524
Just fly in accordance with normal aviation practice and published cct patterns / approach paths and you will prob 99 be ok.

However if the cct alt is 1000’, and you chose to beat up your house at 200 ft inside the ATZ - you most likely will (and perhaps should), get into a little hot water.
Rob L liked this