Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Miscellaneous
#1733698
matthew_w100 wrote:Errr - shouldn't that be the upwind end...

By then you are crosswind and at circuit height, are you not? :?
By riverrock
#1733704
matthew_w100 wrote:
riverrock wrote:Descending Deadside is over the landing threshold so a defined spot position.

Errr - shouldn't that be the upwind end, rather than the landing threshold? :-)

No.
As @Miscellaneous says - the upwind threshold is "crosswind". You call "Deadside Descending" over the point that you are going to land on which is (I suppose) the downwind threshold. Perhaps that is what you meant?

This diagram from the CAA shows the pattern (although it is far from perfect, including its description of "overhead").
Image
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By David Wood
#1733705
Maybe we ought to have a section of the forum for pin heads and dancing thereon. I mean really...

You call overhead when you're, err, overhead. Precisely which bit of the airfield you're overhead at the instant you key the PTT is frankly irrelevant, and there are a host of reasons why you might not be able to make that call at precisely that point in any case. So, if you call "Overhead" when you've still got 3 miles to run then you're not helping people who might reasonably be looking into the overhead to spot you. But beyond that....
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By matthew_w100
#1733718
matthew_w100 wrote:
riverrock wrote:Descending Deadside is over the landing threshold so a defined spot position.

Errr - shouldn't that be the upwind end, rather than the landing threshold? :-)

Gaaa - sorry. My mistake - complete brain fade. I don't know what I was thinking.
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By Boxkite
#1733721
So, in good old non-radio days (which is what the overhead-join is designed for?), you arrive over the field to check out the windsock and the signals square. So how the hell does one arrive over the landing end of the runway when one doesn't know the circuit direction until you get there. Surely the arrival point 'overhead' traditionally is over the centre of the field??
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By Danny
#1733750
For me "overhead" is any position where I would land on the airfield if I jumped out (assuming nil wind of course...
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By Trent772
#1733753
At 195kts, I usually call a little early...... :pirat:
By cockney steve
#1733758
Doesn't the direction-of- the- circuit arrow on 2 sides of the signal-square give a clue as to which is the (nominally ) upwind ( departure) end, and which is the launch/land end? ? Apparently, the square is not always there, but local airfield (Manchester Barton) has one and it can be viewed on-line through the N.W. camera. (one of 4 viewable on-line ,when they're not fogged-up....new ones pending, i'm told.
By riverrock
#1733760
Yes - but you need to be close enough - ie "overhead" the airport to see the signal square. Viewing a web cam, presumably via a mobile phone, isn't really a starter.
However, if there is someone on the radio on the ground who can tell you what's what, which will be the case anywhere which is likely to get busy, then you don't need to look for a signal square etc.
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By David Wood
#1733767
The OHJ is such a simple manouvre but, goodness me, it generates so much discussion and passion...

I think that part of the problem is that some people treat it like a drill movement: at the third stroke I need to be here and I need to say this. But in fact it's just a procedure for getting into the overhead (no please, let's not over-fixate on what that means!) from where, in days of yore, you could look down at the signal square and ascertain the runway in use, the circuit direction and one or two other long-forgotten things like whether or not gliding was in progress.

Then, critically, the OHJ provides for a descent into the ATZ on the deadside (being in theory deserted or at least less busy than the live-side), followed by a join to the busier live-side at the least-dangerous point in the circuit, over the upwind numbers. There's really little more to it than that in truth.

The oft-displayed diagram is somewhat misleading because it rather implies that a pilot is always going to be approaching the field from one direction. But in fact he can approach from any direction. The requirement to 'make all turns in the direction of the circuit' only applies when inside the ATZ, in other words having descended below 2000' aal. If he's above the top of the ATZ he can do what he likes in terms of manouvring (other airspace restrictions permitting, of course).
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By townleyc
#1733976
I thought the requirement to only turn in the circuit direction within the vicinity of the aerodrome, rather than just the ATZ, so would still apply just above?

KE