Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Cub
#1777000
TheFarmer wrote:Having thought I’d got my head around this whole subject last week, it’s clear that I haven’t!

I’ve decided not to have any form of traffic notifications for now, and will wait for Tim to come up with something himself that doesn’t need a degree in Astro-physics to operate and understand. It really is a VHS/Betamax situation and I hope it sorts itself out.

So, after setting out to have a shiny new fully functioning EFIS linked to my Trig and having traffic showing on SD, I’ve got a partially working EFIS, and once again going back to living daily up there in blind oblivion about what’s going on around me. :D

@Tim Dawson - over to you to come up with something nice and simple that doesn’t only do 65% of a job. :D


In fairness to Tim, he can only work with what he receives via various means.
By Shoestring Flyer
#1777015
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Lee,
Can you point me to an easily accessable countrywide map of which ground stations are currently live and which aren't please?


Bump!

Is there a method of obtaining this easily within PAW or by other means on a daily basis and prior to flight?
User avatar
By PaulSS
#1777019
@TheFarmer
So, after setting out to have a shiny new fully functioning EFIS linked to my Trig and having traffic showing on SD, I’ve got a partially working EFIS, and once again going back to living daily up there in blind oblivion about what’s going on around me.


Well, you're already well on the way. With your EFIS GPS linked to your Trig transponder you'll have ADBS Out, so you are now visible to those with dedicated ADSB receivers, SE2 and PAW/Rosetta. You are now far less likely to get hit by somebody like me :D

Now all you need to do is receive traffic information. This can obviously be displayed on Tim's great bit of kit but, as Cub says, SkyDemon needs to be provided with that data. For you it really is just a matter of deciding to go with (a)a PowerFlarm box....very expensive but will show you ADSB and Flarm direct (b)Sky Echo 2......will display ADSB and Flarm direct (with the SkyDemon subscription) or (c)Rosetta......will display ADSB, PAW, Mode C bearingless direct and, via re-broadcast, Flarm and multilaterated (made up word) Mode S.

The downside of the Rosetta is that you do need to be in range of a re-broadcast station (I believe Keevil has one) to see the Flarm traffic. The upside is being able to see more types of EC emissions and push out an extra one of your own (you'll be transmitting PAW as well as ADSB).

The downside of the SkyEcho 2 is that you're already pushing out ADSB from your EFIS to Trig connection, so that (very useful) function of SE2 is wasted. The upside is that you'll be able to receive Flarm targets direct and don't need to rely on Keevil to be rebroadcasting.

I do rather think you'll be waiting a while for Tim to incorporate a bit of EC receiving HARDWARE into his SOFTWARE package. His app already talks to all of the receiving players, so you just need to sort out which of those players you want to buy. After that it's really easy :thumleft:
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By TheFarmer
#1777026
Thanks Paul.

So, a straight question, what would you get if you were in my shoes, with my avionics set-up/home-proximity to busy glider site ?
By patowalker
#1777062
Farmer,
The PAW glider traffic retransmission delay is described here

The very low latency was verified by equipping an aircraft with both FLARM and Pil otAware systems, and watching the round-trip delay from aircraft to ground, then ground to aircraft. There was no visible delay as the transmissions are virtually at the speed of light. The result was that both aircraft were shown ‘piggy-backed’ in the display.


Bear in mind that stations provide overlapping coverage, so even if some are not live, it does not necessarily mean coverage is affected.
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By PaulSS
#1777079
So, a straight question, what would you get if you were in my shoes, with my avionics set-up/home-proximity to busy glider site ?


I would get the Rosetta.

I genuinely don't have a dog in the fight apart from being a PAW customer and someone who has a mild geekery interest in these things.

If you didn't have ADSB Out through your extended squitter then SE2 would add that very great benefit. But you do, so that is a bit of a wasted SE2 capability. SE2 will see ADSB, so will Rosetta. SE2 is going to cost you a bit more than Rosetta but I get the impression that you're a bit like me and would happily spend a couple of hundred extra if you get the benefit. With this in mind, we'll just ignore the the fact that you'll save a bit with Rosetta.

Without going into the future promised developments of either system (METARs etc), Rosetta, over SE2, is going to give you PAW Out and In and Mode C bearingless In. After that it will be Flarm in direct from SE2 versus Flarm and Mode S multilateration from re-broadcast for Rosetta. Keevil does have an OGN station but it is broken at the moment as they need a new antenna. I reckon even the RAF can sort that one out, so I would be confident that you'll get all the info you need about gliders once they get going again and start broadcasting.

It's a shame Avmap don't do a remote-mounted magnetometer, or else you could plonk it in the wingtip (or similar) but, failing that, I would use the SkyDemon wind vector for the purposes you need. As I said before, you only really need it to determine which end of the strip you're going to land on and SkyDemon's calculated wind (I think) will be good enough to do that. Forget the fact that you don't have a magnetic compass and rejoice at all the other fancy gubbins you've got.....and the weight you've saved :D

When you've finished installing the kit in your aircraft then talk to Keith at Pilot Aware and set up your own ATOM station at home. Three antennas, a Raspberry Pi and an ethernet cable and you'll not only help others by re-broadcasting in your area but you'll make sure you always see the gliders from your own super-duper Flarm antenna at the house :thumleft:
T67M, exfirepro liked this
By User72
#1777091
I think you are over optimistic about the quality of data you will receive from rebroadcast anything and from multi-lat.

It really depends what you are using the data for. If you want to know there is traffic in your area and go a different way then it will work well. If you want to correlate contacts you can see with targets on your traffic display you will have to pay more and use a PowerFlarm or TRX1500 (or AIR Traffic).

This is only my opinion from looking at the data available from OGN and FR24 in comparison to what I can see going on out the window. No scientific data used in the formulation of this opinion. I have a TRX1500.
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By PaulSS
#1777095
I don't think any of us think we have a TCAS system in our aircraft and I don't think any of the manufacturers are trying to convince us of that fact either. Sky Echo and Pilot Aware both make it very clear that these bits of kit are an AID to helping us spot conflicting traffic. There is no suggestion of traffic/collision avoidance guidance.

A lot of the installed Flarm gear has collision avoidance/guidance algorithms to stop gliders smacking into each other but that has been designed for relatively slow forward speed ('cos the engine-less brigade insist on flying round in circles) and concentrates on how to avoid fibreglass on fibreglass in the vertical. I certainly would not want to rely on a Flarm box doing the same job as it does for gliders, in a powered machine, that is going to want collision avoidance help when it is travelling horizontally at speeds greater than would be normal for gliders. Instead I want to be told where the long-winged buggers are and I'll sort the rest out for myself.
By Shoestring Flyer
#1777112
Farmer.
My take on all this jumble of a mess of EC currently being offered is...

If you want the best and you can afford it ( Approx £2k fitted) fit PowerFlarmCore with a dedicated separate Traffic display to your panel and do a permanent fix in your aircraft. No on-going subscriptions or payments to anyone once its fitted its done and you will benefit from the extra power in/out of PowerFlarm for the Gliders and possibly in the future Drones and also have ADSB in to the traffic display.
No Mod needed for fitment either in LAA aircraft.

If PowerFlarm is beyond your budget then the guess which to go for in the two other offerings of PAW and SE2 seems to be how much time you like twiddling with geeky settings, resetting Wifi and hoping they might work and show you traffic occasionally.
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By kanga
#1777116
Wide-Body wrote:What we need is NATS/CAA. to design (or commission) a single box solution for all that’s affordable and resilient. It needs to have a simple display or be hooked up to common EFB.

Surely it can’t be above the wit of man.


<familiar refrain :oops: >

.. technically possible but ideologically unacceptable in UK since early '80s: 'government' cannot be seen to be interfereing with the 'free market' which is always going to be 'more efficient'. Hence also why there is no joined-up ATC in UK :evil:

</>
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By PaulSS
#1777126
.......the guess which to go for in the two other offerings of PAW and SE2 seems to be how much time you like twiddling with geeky settings, resetting Wifi and hoping they might work and show you traffic occasionally.


I can only speak for one of the offerings but:

(a)
twiddling with geeky settings
I entered my aircraft's Hex code, decided which traffic I wanted to filter out and that I wanted to connect to SkyDemon using UDP (I don't know what that is but it said to do that in the very simple instructions). I pressed 'Save' and haven't looked at that page again since. Hardly beyond the wit of any man who should be let out unsupervised. From what you've written, PowerFlarmCore magically knows all this and doesn't need any user set up.

(b)
......resetting Wifi
Never done it. I turn on my power and then in SkyDemon tell it to start flying. It connects itself to PAW over WIFI and I've never had to reset anything.

(c)
........hoping they might work and show you traffic occasionally
My 'hoping' would be exactly the same as if I installed a PowerFlarmCore (PFC). Unless others are chucking out some sort of signal then I'm not going to see them but neither will the PFC. PFC is going to see Flarm and ADSB, PAW is going to see PAW, ADSB and Mode C (bearing less); no hoping in it. PAW is, however, also going to see Flarm and Mode S MLAT if I am hopefully in range of a ground station. Seems to me like I have a lot more 'hope' of seeing someone than PFC and I save myself a shed-load of money.

Talking of 'twiddling with geeky settings', how does installing a permanent fit of PFC compare with the same permanent fit of PAW? I know which one I think would be quicker and easier.
By 146fixer
#1777265
@146fixer , does your G5 have the remote magnetometer? If so, where did you install it in the airframe?

TheFarmer, no my G5 hasn’t got a magnetometer. It’s purely a back up instrument. Pitot, static and GPS into it.
I did look at fitting a magnetometer to the MGL. Magnetometers are usually fitted to a extremity, like a wingtip. My aircraft would have required major modifications to do this. I thought it wasn’t worth it in the end.
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By Miscellaneous
#1778699
TheFarmer wrote:
Miscellaneous wrote:
TheFarmer wrote:I dearly wish I’d gone Garmin now. :doh: :doh: :doh: This other cheaper kit seems so Betamax.

Minimise the pain. Cut your losses, sell it and buy the Garmin. You know that's what you'll eventually do anyway. :wink:


:D

I know, and that’s the problem!

The thing is, the G5 won’t actually do anything more than the Avmap, even with the compass unable to be calibrated. But it’s annoying to have an instrument that only partially works.

My next investment will be Rosetta, because I’ve got the Avmap GPS-linked to the Trig TT21.

Bloody Hell, I got that wrong, did I not. That is a much more drastic solution you opted for than I think anyone could have imagined. :shock: Did you even see it on the horizon? :D
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