Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By PaulSS
#1776966
Specific to Flarm and not meant to be another 'my box is better than your box' comment:

Sky Echo 2, in conjunction with SkyDemon has the subscription for 'direct' Flarm that you are talking about.

Rosetta will provide Flarm targets when you are within range of a ground station, which will re-broadast data from the ATOM/OGN-R stations.

SE2 is good because you don't need to be in range of a ground station to receive the data. However, if you are within range then you can expect better 'detection' ranges of the Flarm targets on Rosetta, as you're not relying directly on their relatively weak signal strength. My recent experience of flying to the south of Parham meant I could see their gliders at a very useful range and the warnings I received were at the ranges I'd set for all the other PAW traffic.

On a personal note, I don't think you need to buy more hardware. Ignoring the extra visibility you'll provide with the PAW broadcast, with ADSB Out through your extended squitter and all the IN information you'll receive through Rosetta, you'll find you will see and be seen a LOT more than you are now. However, if you really want to splash out more dosh then you COULD buy a Flarm device (such as the Flarm Mouse) and integrate it into your Rosetta with a USB cable.
User avatar
By exfirepro
#1776969
@TheFarmer

Paul has beaten me to it. :) His explanation is correct. You won’t receive FLARM direct through Rosetta, but you will receive ‘real-time’ rebroadcast of FLARM traffic from any OGN-R stations within range (typically up to 10 - 20 miles), - which is much better than direct FLARM receive range due to the high gain FLARM receive antennas of the OGN-R Stations and their 500mW rebroadcast strength.

You will also get virtually real-time* 3D position reports from any Mode S aircraft within range of the Ground Stations (moving aircraft on your tablet rather than just warning rings) and a ‘risk and altitude’ warning for all other Mode S and Mode C within direct receive range ( As well as ‘seeing’ all other PilotAware equipped aircraft within range).

* within a few milliseconds

If you need any help setting it up, drop me a PM.

Best Regards

Peter
User avatar
By Cub
#1776971
A couple of questions I asked in another thread without an answer. How do I know if I am receiving the rebroadcast picture from a ground station and assuming I am receiving a rebroadcast picture, how do I know if the glider on my nose is being received by the ground station and being rebroadcast to me? Or, is it reasonable to assume that if I am receiving a rebroadcast that everything around me is being detected and rebroadcast to me?
User avatar
By T67M
#1776973
@Cub - sadly nothing (other than death) is guaranteed in life, and no traffic awareness system, whether primary radar, secondary radar, ADS-B, FLARM P3I or the Mark 1 Eyeball is 100% accurate. They are all tools that require intelligent people integrate in order to reduce the errors, but you can never eliminate all errors. There is, therefore, no correct answer to your question, which is probably why no-one answered it last time you asked it.
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User avatar
By PaulSS
#1776976
@Cub I've got an equally pointed question: how do I know the glider on my nose is Flarm-equipped and able to be received directly on 'my' SE2?

I find it bizarre that on the one hand you are arguing for TIS/FIS (i.e. re-broadcasting) and yet, because it involves the competition to uAvionix (for whom you work), you call into question the re-broadcasting of PAW.

@TheFarmer Sorry to de-rail your thread. I really didn't want to regurgitate the PAW/SE2 argument, hence my attempt to keep my previous reply 'factual'. Unfortunately Cub has got his agenda and couldn't resist airing the same questions he's already asked elsewhere.
User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1776978
Cub wrote:A couple of questions I asked in another thread without an answer. How do I know if I am receiving the rebroadcast picture from a ground station and assuming I am receiving a rebroadcast picture, how do I know if the glider on my nose is being received by the ground station and being rebroadcast to me? Or, is it reasonable to assume that if I am receiving a rebroadcast that everything around me is being detected and rebroadcast to me?

Great question, (posting to both threads)

Today the PilotAware RADAR screen will indicate the number of ATOM stations you are receiving. You mention SkyDemon (other EFB's are available :D ) - this is not under our control, but certainly the information is available to be displayed if required - do you have a suggestion how this should be displayed ?

In addition to the above there is lots of ongoing work in the ATOM/GRID development of services in addition to the Traffic (MLAT, FLARM), we are now uplinking METAR reports, and 2 further information services are under development.
Right now we are finalising the next PilotAware release which will include an ACKnowledge in its Ownship Traffic message so that not only will the PilotAware installation know if it is in receipt of Uplink data, but the ATOM ground station and GRID network will have a consolidated picture of who is in receipt of uplink services, this is a great advance in closing what was effectively an open loop circuit - I don't believe any similar system architecture exists anywhere else in the world of aviation.

The above was a necessity for another ongoing project (very exciting, but as yet under strict NDA) where very low level traffic has totally different requirements to those at higher altitudes. This has led to the R&D of some innovative routing algorithms (of the networking type) for interconnection of air-air air-ground and ground-air. I am unable to say more right now, but this will be a paradigm shift as far as we are concerned.

Final note on the rebroadcast technology as I think there has been some confusion. There is no global rebroadcast of traffic data, the data for rebroadcast is selectively prioritised. There is clearly no point in telling you about traffic 60km away from your current position. You may occasionally receive peripheral broadcast, this is where a broadcast is made for another aircraft, but you are receiving as part of a peripheral detection.

I hope that all makes sense

Thx
Lee
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By Shoestring Flyer
#1776979
Cub wrote:A couple of questions I asked in another thread without an answer. How do I know if I am receiving the rebroadcast picture from a ground station and assuming I am receiving a rebroadcast picture, how do I know if the glider on my nose is being received by the ground station and being rebroadcast to me? Or, is it reasonable to assume that if I am receiving a rebroadcast that everything around me is being detected and rebroadcast to me?


Another interesting question to ask..
How many Ground stations are live at any one time?....Try looking or even finding a map of which ones are actually working today and how many are actually not working and haven't worked for months/years?
User avatar
By TheFarmer
#1776983
Having thought I’d got my head around this whole subject last week, it’s clear that I haven’t!

I’ve decided not to have any form of traffic notifications for now, and will wait for Tim to come up with something himself that doesn’t need a degree in Astro-physics to operate and understand. It really is a VHS/Betamax situation and I hope it sorts itself out.

So, after setting out to have a shiny new fully functioning EFIS linked to my Trig and having traffic showing on SD, I’ve got a partially working EFIS, and once again going back to living daily up there in blind oblivion about what’s going on around me. :D

@Tim Dawson - over to you to come up with something nice and simple that doesn’t only do 65% of a job. :D
Tim Dawson liked this
User avatar
By leemoore1966
#1776985
Shoestring Flyer wrote:Another interesting question to ask..
How many Ground stations are live at any one time?....Try looking or even finding a map of which ones are actually working today and how many are actually not working and haven't worked for months/years?

I am not sure where you get your information, but you are either confused or drawing the wrong conclusion.
Can you tell us how many are required, and how you determined this number, then we can start to debate
Thx
Lee
User avatar
By Cub
#1776987
Right now we are finalising the next PilotAware release which will include an ACKnowledge in its Ownship Traffic message so that not only will the PilotAware installation know if it is in receipt of Uplink data, but the ATOM ground station and GRID network will have a consolidated picture of who is in receipt of uplink services, this is a great advance in closing what was effectively an open loop circuit - I don't believe any similar system architecture exists anywhere else in the world of aviation.


You have mentioned before that the protocol you use is open and available to all. Does that mean that anyone with a suitable receiver can then receive the broadcast, similar to TIS-B and FIS-B, in effect making the ATOM/OGN-R network a public service?
User avatar
By Cub
#1776992
PaulSS wrote:@Cub I've got an equally pointed question: how do I know the glider on my nose is Flarm-equipped and able to be received directly on 'my' SE2.


Of course You don’t, but you are aware that a large proportion of the glider fleet is equipped with FLARM and the Farmer’s question in relation to his new fit genuinely interested me. When he gets airborne from his strip with some device capable of directly receiving FLARM, it would be reasonable for him to expect to detect a conflicting FLARM equipped Keevil glider.

What I was asking is how, if he invested in a Rosetta, would he know he was in receipt of a rebroadcast service and if he is, how does he know if the traffic relevant to him is being received and rebroadcast by the network.
User avatar
By TheFarmer
#1776995
In fairness to Cub, I didn’t detect anything underhand about his question.

Those Keevil gliders are indeed about to get very busy, and I will have to fly through their flocks most days they’re up.
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User avatar
By Cub
#1776996
T67M wrote:@Cub - sadly nothing (other than death) is guaranteed in life, and no traffic awareness system, whether primary radar, secondary radar, ADS-B, FLARM P3I or the Mark 1 Eyeball is 100% accurate. They are all tools that require intelligent people integrate in order to reduce the errors, but you can never eliminate all errors. There is, therefore, no correct answer to your question, which is probably why no-one answered it last time you asked it.


Your clearly didn’t read my question which was very straight forward and answered by Lee.
User avatar
By Wide-Body
#1776999
What we need is NATS/CAA. to design (or commission) a single box solution for all that’s affordable and resilient. It needs to have a simple display or be hooked up to common EFB.

Surely it can’t be above the wit of man.
TheFarmer liked this
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