Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1700072
So I was at Aero Expo today (cold, windy, very low cloud first thing) and I spoke to Border Force regarding flying to Alderney and submitting a GAR (12 hours notice etc).

I used to fly there a lot from Enstone, and used to get special branch permission etc.

Now, as I understand it, I must fly from an airfield with a certificate of agreement which allows flight to / from the channel islands (customs/immigration/police). Neither Enstone, nor Hinton have a certificate.
So that leaves me with flying to another airport, Turweston or Lee on Solent (en route), landing, stopping, taking off again to complete the flight.

So the question is, how long do I need to stay on the ground for? and who do I need to talk to whilst there.

I guess I could land at Southampton, if I could afford it, and they had a landing slot available.

It does seem to be a bit of a retrograde step from a few years ago when I travelled regularly to Alderney.
#1700085
The gov.uk GAR page includes a link to a document called "Border Force expectations of airfield operators".

However, because that is a Border Force document, not a Police one, it does not cover expectations about departures.

There is no equivalent Police guidance on that GAR page.

Logic suggests, I suppose, that they want 12h notice in case they want to come and quiz you/look at the aircraft, so a touch and go wouldn't be sufficient and the same logic suggests you'd have to at least ensure that you don't depart prior to your ETD specified on the form, as Malcolm says. That doesn't necessarily mean you'd have to shut down if starting somewhere else, but I think you'd have to take your own view about that given the circumstances on the day - e.g. are you happy that if the A/G operator tells you that they don't know of police on the airfield, is that sufficient? (It not being the A/G operators' role to necessarily check or know).

@PaulB, unfortunately the guidance doesn't explicitly answer these particular questions:
Martingbuk wrote:So the question is, how long do I need to stay on the ground for? and who do I need to talk to whilst there.
#1700097
e.g. are you happy that if the A/G operator tells you that they don't know of police on the airfield, is that sufficient? (It not being the A/G operators' role to necessarily check or know).

If they're around they'll be having a Full English in the cafe right by the A/G operator desk, and as they are the only ones in suits we'll probably spot them!
I would have thought a full stop, taxi back and take off would work, give the guy on duty a heads up by phone before leaving base.
#1700101
It does seem to be a bit of a retrograde step from a few years ago when I travelled regularly to Alderney.


It's a bit annoying, but current rules are that you can only fly between anywhere in the UK and somewhere else in the EU. This somewhere else has its own restrictions - a Schengen port of entry is typically required with the exception of Ireland.

These rules have not changed in the past 10 years or so.

Because the Channel Islands is outside the UK and outside the EU, you can only fly there from a Designated aerodrome which often costs more but may be more convenient, or an aerodrome that holds a Certificate of Agreement.

So if you file the GAR from that aerodrome, and if nobody greets you at that stated time, then you're all good to be on your way.
Nick liked this
#1700120
You just have to comply with the law, which means you have a use an airfield on the list, provide the required notice in writing and (though it isn't explicitly required anywhere but logical if the law is to make any sense) depart at or after your stated departure time.

There's no requirement to go and seek out a policeman or make yourself available at the departure airfield for any particular amount of time. The law just says use the right airfield and provide the right notice.

Personally I would choose the nearest airfield to my route that had a sensible landing fee, was prepared to take payment over the phone in advance and didn't insist on you getting out of the aircraft to personally sign their movement log.

Land, taxi back to the start of the runway and depart. I don't think a touch-and-go would cut it, because it's still the same flight (you wouldn't enter a flight with a touch-and-go in your logbook as two flights, would you?) and if it's the same flight that departed Enstone then it can't morph into a flight that departed Popham (as the law requires) during the climb-out...

Edited to add: An interesting experiment would be to file a GAR saying you were departing Enstone and see if anyone actually came back to you and said that it wasn't allowed. Don't actually do the flight direct, of course.
#1700133
The problem with Alderney is that customs apply because the CI aren’t in the EU. It’s not hard to do the paperwork so Enstone could become a designated field without too much difficulty.

In the meantime you can land at your designated airfield at the time on the GAR and if there’s no one from customs there simply take off again and complete your flight.

The GAR works fine for the police, which also applies, as the law requires only that you notify a constable. You would be legal if you simply stopped a bobby in the street and told him!
Last edited by johnm on Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1700134
johnm wrote:The problem with Alderney is that customs apply because the CI aren’t in the EU. It’s not hard to do the paperwork so Enstone could become a designated field without too much difficulty.

We may be in the same boat in November :lol: :lol: :lol:
#1700140
malcolmfrost wrote:So how do they manage to trade with us and France and where is their border?!
Genuinely curious....

Jersey has a special relationship with the European Union (EU). In simple terms, the Island is treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise is not a part of the EU. The formal relationship is set out in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty and confirmed in what is now Article 355 (5) (c) of the EU Treaties.

See https://www.gov.je/Government/Departmen ... andUK.aspx for more details
#1700142
derekf wrote:
malcolmfrost wrote:So how do they manage to trade with us and France and where is their border?!
Genuinely curious....

Jersey has a special relationship with the European Union (EU). In simple terms, the Island is treated as part of the European Union for the purposes of free trade in goods, but otherwise is not a part of the EU. The formal relationship is set out in Protocol 3 of the UK's 1972 Accession Treaty and confirmed in what is now Article 355 (5) (c) of the EU Treaties.

See https://www.gov.je/Government/Departmen ... andUK.aspx for more details


This also applies to Guernsey Alderney and all the other Crown Dependencies IIRC