Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By jaycee58
#1694349
If you're taking CPL theory (and I think one or two are) and have yet to do flight planning then you may want to read this. I thought I was very well prepared for this exam and actually thought it was my best bet for getting 100% (or close) but you need to be very wary of only studying what is in the CPL syllabus.

My training providers notes state I have no need to study planning for jet aircraft or topics such as penalty fuel and reduced contingency fuel planning. What I got was an exam that was so alien to me that I thought I'd been set an ATPL exam by mistake. The exam was almost entirely jet-based, with no questions on SEP and MEP planning. There were questions on jet airliner long range cruise tables (I'd never even seen one before), some other rather complex table, I think mach numbers were involved, that I've not seen before and can't find in CAP697 and questions that meant absolutely nothing at all to me (such as the above mentioned fuel topics)! I eventually ran out of time trying to do questions that I had no hope of getting right as I hadn't studied the topics involved. My result was so embarrassingly low that I don't even get a list of the deficient learning objectives.

I wouldn't normally go on a forum and announce my failures to the world but I'd rather other people had a bit of a head's up on what, to me, was an extremely unfair and unexpected set of exam questions. It might be a good idea to study this topic to ATPL level, because you may well need to and that's what I'll be doing over the next two weeks.

Mods:- please move this to students if you think it's more at home there.
User avatar
By WelshRichy
#1694369
I think you may already know I am aware of what has happened from another source and I for one am extremely grateful you taken the time to share your experience with Flight Planning for others who are about to go through the process of sitting these CPL exams. I will certainly be bearing this in mind when I get to Flight Planning in Module 3.

For other's reference ATPL/CPL LO's can be found here:

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/Annex%20II%20to%20ED%20Decision%202016-008-R.pdf?fbclid=IwAR3C1YcHYMjxSPMO2FhuNDO478aEhb-ZX0k6KUeluL5PFyV3-9OUCnCXo-s

Incidentally I'm still awaiting my exam results from this week! Given up now and have consigned to the fact it will be Monday before I know. I'm happy one exam centre have their results though before the weekend, but the CAA should be consistent and release everyone's results at the same time!

Keep at it and you'll get there. Hope the next one is a lot more fair and what we should be expecting.
jaycee58 liked this
User avatar
By derekf
#1694372
Interestingly I decided to do ATPL rather than CPL.
I felt the ATPL Flight Planning exam should have been renamed Fuel planning given the number of really in depth questions about that with just about every possible scenario. lots of similar comments from people I spoke to...

It may be worth comlain8ng (possibly via your provider) and getting your exam reviewed against the CPL LOs if nothing else than getting a free resit...
jaycee58 liked this
User avatar
By jaycee58
#1694374
Yes, I thought the Facebook group was the best place for a rant to get it off my chest. Honestly though, I was fuming when I left the exam room.

For my other two sittings I received the results at 9am on the Friday and was rather puzzled when nothing happened this morning. My results arrived at 1545 this afternoon. I did the exams at Luton. Sorry to hear that yours never arrived today. I hope they arrive promptly on Monday and that you were successful. I have to resit performance (not sure how I messed up as the exam was reasonable enough) and of course, flight planning. I have these booked for two weeks time.

To answer UV's post, my training provider's study guide makes it clear I should only have to study SEP and MEP planning.

Oh well, two more weeks stuck indoors studying won't do me any harm but I'll have to ask my provider to give me access to the ATPL questions as otherwise I can't practice questions on the new topics I need to learn.
User avatar
By jaycee58
#1694375
derekf wrote:Interestingly I decided to do ATPL rather than CPL.
I felt the ATPL Flight Planning exam should have been renamed Fuel planning given the number of really in depth questions about that with just about every possible scenario. lots of similar comments from people I spoke to...

It may be worth comlain8ng (possibly via your provider) and getting your exam reviewed against the CPL LOs if nothing else than getting a free resit...


I discussed it with my provider, in person, almost as soon as the exam had finished and it seems they have come across this before at CPL level. One poor chap got 74% for this exam on his 6th sitting so an unsuccessful appeal (which costs £133, far more than the exam itself) will mean he has to start from scratch again. Not a pleasant prospect.

Once I've calmed down (seriously, it's taking a long while) I will write to the CAA and see if they can do what you suggest as I clearly had questions that were not in the CPL LO's.
#1694391
I did CPL writtens about 10 years ago, and a lot of the material was heavily jet based then.

It didn't really worry me as my career has been across aviation, and I found it all interesting and relevant *to me*, but I can see why someone whose whole aviation outlook is SEP would feel strongly otherwise.

By comparison, I just took (and passed :D ) FAA CPL written, and I don't think that there were even any ME questions.

G
User avatar
By MichaelP
#1694393
I designed CBT lessons in airline performance.

They are stupid if they think that ‘Jet Knowledge’ is required and relevant in primary flight training.
It isn’t.

I see it at flight schools now...

What is the rotate speed for a Cessna 152?

What a load of ****, the elevator is there for the protection of the nosewheel. Take the weight off it, let the aeroplane rotate naturally, and then fly.

If there’s a question about the need for a rotate speed, what about the soft field takeoff?

Rotate speeds belong on multi engine aeroplanes, and not on single engine light aircraft.
Old single engine jets needed to be rotated very carefully however... A Vampire won’t fly like a Cessna 152.
User avatar
By SteveC
#1694404
To my knowledge it’s always been Jet based and contained the stuff you mention which is what we train our students on. The CPL questions are just a subset of the ATPL bank so I am very surprised that the topics were a surprise to you and the training provider.
User avatar
By jaycee58
#1694418
SteveC wrote:To my knowledge it’s always been Jet based and contained the stuff you mention which is what we train our students on. The CPL questions are just a subset of the ATPL bank so I am very surprised that the topics were a surprise to you and the training provider.


Neither my own provider's or BGS question bank gives me questions on the topics I had in the exam. All of the topics concerned are in the MRJT section of the books which my study guide clearly states that I can ignore as it's not relevant to CPL.

Anyway, I have a resit in 2 weeks and I'll make sure I'm up to speed with it by then. I have 3 sittings left though I hope I don't need them!
User avatar
By defcribed
#1694432
Perhaps this is why many people treat the question bank as the primary study aid and relegate the training materials to second place?

I thought you could appeal off-syllabus questions individually and get them credited?
User avatar
By jaycee58
#1694435
defcribed wrote:Perhaps this is why many people treat the question bank as the primary study aid and relegate the training materials to second place?

I thought you could appeal off-syllabus questions individually and get them credited?


I'm about to discuss this over the phone with the head of my training provider but there were so many questions that I hadn't studied for that, with the exception of three or four, I'm hard pushed to remember what the questions actually were.

As for studying, yes I agree that there are a surprising number of people who regard the TK as just a massive hurdle to overcome and have no interest in actually learning anything This appears to be pretty rife among some of the younger people taking ATPL, in fact the attitude of some I've met at the ground schools, given that they want to be professional airline pilots, is sometimes quite shocking.
By BlackadderIA
#1694451
I feel your pain having just finished the ATPL TK with yesterday’s results.
We were actually in the same exam center on Monday, I’d have come over and said hello but I was in pre-exam panic cramming mode!

I was under the impression that a lot of the fuel planning stuff was in the CPL LOs as it wasn’t MRJT specific (so the CAA didn’t count it under ‘CPL students don’t do MRJT’). Certainly the CPL students on the crammers at my school were covering it, it was just the MRJT graphs they didn’t do?

Best of luck with the appeal. If you end up having to cover it all then at least you’ll know when it’s worth tankering fuel in the C152!
jaycee58 liked this
User avatar
By derekf
#1694454
jaycee58 wrote:
defcribed wrote:Perhaps this is why many people treat the question bank as the primary study aid and relegate the training materials to second place?

I thought you could appeal off-syllabus questions individually and get them credited?


I'm about to discuss this over the phone with the head of my training provider but there were so many questions that I hadn't studied for that, with the exception of three or four, I'm hard pushed to remember what the questions actually were.

As for studying, yes I agree that there are a surprising number of people who regard the TK as just a marssive hurdle to overcome and have no interest in actually learning anything This appears to be pretty rife among some of the younger people taking ATPL, in fact the attitude of some I've met at the ground schools, given that they want to be professional airline pilots, is sometimes quite shocking.


Make sure you add a comment to each question you don’t feel is in the LOs when you do the exam. It helps on appeal, and if you pass anyway it doesn’t matter!

Just ask for the CAA to verify that each question you got wrong was in the LOs and cite the MJRT as an example