Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1657643
Talkdownman wrote:
chevvron wrote:The same holds true for all military airfields with H24 notification in ENR 2.2.

Maybe, but we are talking about a civil airport here which has already 'grabbed' (and wasted) 9 hours-worth of Class G airspace each and every day.

I can recall the airport director telling me in about 2003 he had been asked if he wished to reduce the ATZ hours to the same as operational hours; as he was a retired Air Commodore who had been AOC MATO and thus far more experienced than me, :salut: I left him to reply to the query. :wink:
Of course, if it inconveniences anyone flying in the vicinity between 10pm and 7am, I'm sure a solution could be found if you want to discuss it with TAG. :twisted:
#1657675
GonzoEGLL wrote:I know you chaps are not being completely serious, but for others reading this thread, the same controller might also be........carrying out the Approach Radar function at the same time, talking to vehicles, answering outside line telephone calls, controlling the traffic lights of an airside road taxiway crossing (that’s not visible from the seated position), liaising with Approach Radar, if split, for departure clearances and releases, liaising with UK FMP or AFPEX regarding CTOTs and flight plans, talking to TAG ops regarding parking positions, or walking to the edge of the other side of the Tower to see which way a certain aircraft has parked, or is meant to park, or weather it can start an engine before pushback, or any number of other duties. Frequently they are the only person in the VCR.

Yes, it can be quiet, but it can also be very complex as well, given all the extra tasks.

Do you mean inexcusably 'bandboxed'...?
chevvron liked this
#1657677
What, RiT?

I wasn’t remarking on the reasons why it was introduced, but it is a current procedure; each controller needs to do it for a certain number of hours per month for currency, as well as when the situation may warrant it for real.
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By kanga
#1657725
GonzoEGLL wrote:I know you chaps are not being completely serious, but for others reading this thread, the same controller might also be.........
Yes, it can be quiet, but it can also be very complex as well, given all the extra tasks.


.. so perhaps TAG should be paying for more ATCOs/ATSAs .. :?

[what, there's a shortage ? Well, we have a nice ATCO school at Staverton. Not that long ago one of the Landside Assistants transferred to become a trainee ATSA. There's a lot to be said for 'growing one's own' :thumright: ]
#1657733
kanga wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:I know you chaps are not being completely serious, but for others reading this thread, the same controller might also be.........
Yes, it can be quiet, but it can also be very complex as well, given all the extra tasks.


.. so perhaps TAG should be paying for more ATCOs/ATSAs .. :?

[what, there's a shortage ? Well, we have a nice ATCO school at Staverton. Not that long ago one of the Landside Assistants transferred to become a trainee ATSA. There's a lot to be said for 'growing one's own' :thumright: ]

ATC at Farnborough is still contracted to NATS; there's no leeway for local recruiting. NATS post in the number of ATC staff they believe they need to fulfil the contract.
#1657749
kanga wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:I know you chaps are not being completely serious, but for others reading this thread, the same controller might also be.........
Yes, it can be quiet, but it can also be very complex as well, given all the extra tasks.


.. so perhaps TAG should be paying for more ATCOs/ATSAs .. :?

[what, there's a shortage ? Well, we have a nice ATCO school at Staverton. Not that long ago one of the Landside Assistants transferred to become a trainee ATSA. There's a lot to be said for 'growing one's own' :thumright: ]


You’ll probably find that the majority of trainees on Global’s training courses right now are NATS trainees. Same goes for FTE Jerez ATC Training college in Spain.

Again, I wasn’t saying it’s ideal, or describing should be, just what is.
kanga liked this
#1657810
Talkdownman wrote:
chevvron wrote:ATC at Farnborough is still contracted to NATS; there's no leeway for local recruiting. NATS post in the number of ATC staff they believe they need to fulfil the contract.

Commercial pressure versus safety?

The contract has to be priced to beat any competitors.
Whether NATS HR actually understand what the overall task is like is another matter; you and I both know what they're like.
#1657857
chevvron wrote:
Talkdownman wrote:
chevvron wrote:ATC at Farnborough is still contracted to NATS; there's no leeway for local recruiting. NATS post in the number of ATC staff they believe they need to fulfil the contract.

Commercial pressure versus safety?

The contract has to be priced to beat any competitors.
Whether NATS HR actually understand what the overall task is like is another matter; you and I both know what they're like.


Sorry, but if you think HR have any input into contract bids then you’re mistaken.
#1657877
GonzoEGLL wrote:Sorry, but if you think HR have any input into contract bids then you’re mistaken.


I think you would be very surprised as how much HR drives businesses these days. You may think that Ops are independent of such things and that getting contracts makes money, but the reality these days is that the first stop is HR to keep a company profitable... :roll:

Regards, SD..
#1657892
skydriller wrote:
GonzoEGLL wrote:Sorry, but if you think HR have any input into contract bids then you’re mistaken.


I think you would be very surprised as how much HR drives businesses these days. You may think that Ops are independent of such things and that getting contracts makes money, but the reality these days is that the first stop is HR to keep a company profitable... :roll:

Regards, SD..


No, I certainly don’t think Ops are independent in any way, but the decisions in terms of contract costs for a tender are made by senior managers and bid managers working from data supplied by the HR department, among others.

HR don’t decide whether or not to increase a unit’s Ops staffing requirement, or that radar can be done bandboxed between 0700 and 0800 etc. They will provide the information about the cost that would add or remove, but they don’t decide whether to make that change/addition etc.
Last edited by GonzoEGLL on Fri Dec 14, 2018 11:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1657915
CloudHound wrote:In most of the large aerospace companies for which I’ve worked despite swinging cuts in staff numbers the HR departments remained about the same size.

Come back Steve Mason, all is forgiven. :?
#1658110
GonzoEGLL wrote:
HR don’t decide whether or not to increase a unit’s Ops staffing requirement, or that radar can be done bandboxed between 0700 and 0800 etc. They will provide the information about the cost that would add or remove, but they don’t decide whether to make that change/addition etc.

But they do have to find the extra staff needed when it is decided to increase the complement needed and they also have to find sufficiently qualified staff to replace retirees and postings out; what they don't seem to realise is that anyone new posted in will need about 6 months traning at least before going 'solo' (more if they're straight from the college and have no prior operational experience) so it's no good waiting until the retiree (for instance) leaves before the replacement is posted in.