Learning to fly, or thinking of learning? Post your questions, comments and experiences here

Moderator: AndyR

By TopCat
#1631879
Miscellaneous wrote:Indeed, by the fact I'm sat here typing, however it was a very, very close call.

What actually happened?

Was it a go-around, a touch-and-go, or an attempted take-off with full flap from stopped, on a short runway and/or obstacles in the climbout?
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By Miscellaneous
#1631886
800m of grass with no obstacles and he decided to see if the 172 could take off with full flap.
It got off but wouldn't climb, remaining uncomfortably close to the ground for a long, long time.

I just realised some readers may interpret my post as a story of a responsible instructor demonstrating something he knew to be safe, that wasn't the case.
#1631942
Miscellaneous wrote:800m of grass with no obstacles and he decided to see if the 172 could take off with full flap.
It got off but wouldn't climb, remaining uncomfortably close to the ground for a long, long time.

I just realised some readers may interpret my post as a story of a responsible instructor demonstrating something he knew to be safe, that wasn't the case.


Out of interest, did he raise the flaps, land back on, or just get away with it?

G
#1631974
@Genghis the Engineer although this particular instructor was a bit of a maverick, ironically it was his stick and rudder skills which resulted in him getting away with it.
Sat in the back I was convinced we were never going to climb. :pale:
#1649534
I can remember a chap at High Wycombe taking off in a C172 and obviously not realising he had not lifted flaps full from the preflight as he had gone down the taxiway in that configuration. He staggered up to about 100 feet and then spun in, all four on board killed. As a result of that accident we banned anyone getting into any of our aircraft with flap selected down. All preflighting and exercising of flap must be done before the on board cockpit preparation is completed. We also have a big emphasis on transit checks after the first flight of the day check so flaps are only cycled once a day. (also stops pax from banging their heads on the flap on the C172 )
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By TopCat
#1649608
Harry Brown wrote:We also have a big emphasis on transit checks after the first flight of the day check so flaps are only cycled once a day

Just so that I don't misunderstand, are you really saying by this, that all pilots flying an aircraft after the first one on any day were to rely on the first pilot of the day to check that the flaps went up and down properly?

To prevent some berk taking off with full flap selected?

Really???????????
#1649620
No I am saying that it isnt necessary to do a Check A every-time you fly. A first flight of the day check(for us) is done or supervised by an FI or qualified pilot and signed into the technical log. Subsequent checks are transit checks which do not include flap cycling. This also improves our daily flight time availability and also produces a PPL who knows how to do both types of check and wont pxxs off other organisations who hire aircraft and find that the hirers spend most of the time seemingly doing an overhaul of the aircraft before flight
By TopCat
#1649682
Harry Brown wrote:No I am saying that it isnt necessary to do a Check A every-time you fly.

I agree it's not necessary to do a Check A every time I fly, if I flew it last.

But if someone else flew it first that day, how do I know they did the Check A right, signed off or not?
Cessna57 liked this
By Harry Brown
#1649715
You don't and as the commander of an aircraft its your prerogative to do any check you like on any particular aircraft. I am just telling you what I/we do and teach.
How do you know the 50 and 150 hour checks are "done right" did you watch the engineer do it?
By Cessna57
#1649858
This is a completely true story.

One day I went to fly an aircraft that had come back from maintenance that morning, I set off on a checkA and half way through discovered a wingtip was incorrectly installed and was rubbing the aileron, I went off to find the CFI and point it out to him.

“yours is the 3rd flight of the day, it’s had 2 other checkA” was the reply.

“That may be true, but I’m not flying it like that, a jammed aileron might be too exciting for me, if you want to find me a screwdriver I’ll fix it if you like, but I’m not flying it like that”

it got fixed.

I also turned up to fly our Cherokee one day after another pilot, pushed the stabilator (elevator)sideways and it went “clonk”. Said to the other pilot “oh dear, did it do that before your flight”, and he said “dunno, I don’t usually check for end float on that.” (It’s a required check)

Mind you, it wasn’t until I was preflightung with another pilot that I found out about checking the counterbalances in the wing tips on a PA28, had never been shown them before.

I got into an RV once flown by a very experienced pilot and LAA inspector, I had 100% faith in him, but couldn’t shake off the feeling I hadn’t pre flighted it.

No way would I fly an aircraft I hadn’t preflighted myself or where I have full trust in the person who did. No way would I fly an aircraft after a transit check if the person who did the CheckA was a student! (even when I was a student myself)
By TopCat
#1649873
Cessna57 wrote:One day I went to fly an aircraft that had come back from maintenance that morning, I set off on a checkA and half way through discovered a wingtip was incorrectly installed and was rubbing the aileron, I went off to find the CFI and point it out to him.

“yours is the 3rd flight of the day, it’s had 2 other checkA” was the reply.


I would find it exceptionally difficult to remain calm and polite if I got that sort of response from the CFI (or even any FI) in a situation like that.
By flyingyod
#1649901
Harry Brown wrote:I can remember a chap at High Wycombe taking off in a C172 and obviously not realising he had not lifted flaps full from the preflight as he had gone down the taxiway in that configuration. He staggered up to about 100 feet and then spun in, all four on board killed. As a result of that accident we banned anyone getting into any of our aircraft with flap selected down. All preflighting and exercising of flap must be done before the on board cockpit preparation is completed. We also have a big emphasis on transit checks after the first flight of the day check so flaps are only cycled once a day. (also stops pax from banging their heads on the flap on the C172 )

One of the 172s I fly is an M, which has flaps that go to 40*, the toggle switch for moving the flaps up and down, and a flap indicator next to it that looks like this

Image
Whether due to parallax or misconfiguration or just age, when the flaps are either fully up or full down it's not obvious at a glance exactly where the black needle on black background actually is. The flap control is right under the transponder. It's very easy to knock the flap selector when doing something to the transponder. The flap control on this particular a/c doesn't spring back from the down position...

Fortunately on the day that these holes all lined up the wind was such that a backtrack was required and I spotted the flaps at 40* during the backtrack, but from that day on I ALWAYS check the flaps (along with fuel on both and trim set for takeoff) on entering the runway, regardless of how many times I've checked them as part of the pre-flight/pre-takeoff checklist
Last edited by flyingyod on Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.