[eltonioni]

Inflation is what makes debt disappear which is why borrowing governments are so keen on growth because it is inextricably linked to inflation.

Where money actually comes out of thin air (or the ground) the government resorts to supply controls to encourage demand and value stabilisation which achieves the same growth when dealing with more financially sophisticated countries who have borrowing but fewer natural resources. See a Middle East despot for more information,

Not that any of this matters because communism doesn’t work for more than a week or two. The capitalist system is very clever and beautifully simple at the same time.

[Miscellaneous]

Not that any of this matters because communism doesn’t work for more than a week or two.

Don't you mean it simply doesn't work and the best you can expect before it becoming apparent is a week or two?

[JoeC]

Not that any of this matters because communism doesn’t work for more than a week or two. The capitalist system is very clever and beautifully simple at the same time.

Don’t worry Elt, when you overhear the adults talking about the real world it can feel scary but I assure you that the nasty communists aren’t coming to take your hot tub. Now run along and play nicely with Misc.

[eltonioni]

Not that any of this matters because communism doesn’t work for more than a week or two. The capitalist system is very clever and beautifully simple at the same time.

Don’t worry Elt, when you overhear the adults talking about the real world it can feel scary but I assure you that the nasty communists aren’t coming to take your hot tub. Now run along and play nicely with Misc.

Love it. Go on, do @Miscellaneous next

[Miscellaneous]

@JoeC the reality is the grown ups don't throw teddy out the pram with snide personal remarks every time they are found wanting.

The truth is it is more often than not the so called socialists/communists/'lefties' which are the best evidence in support of the fact it doesn't work.

If I recall correctly despite your very best attempts at convincing the world how caring, giving and considerate you are it took your accountant, no less, to convince you not to complain about paying your 'Corporation Tax' and to be thankful at being in the position and to just get on with it.

But heh, you go on convincing yourself the theory translates to practice if it gives you a feeling of superiority.

[andytk58]

I did once ask at a seminar run by the then Department of Trade and Industry
"Why is it that everything we're talking about today is based on achieving growth in the economy? Why is economic growth so important?"
They looked at me as if I'd f**ted in church, but no-one could actually answer.

Because as a society we've just about worked out how to keep our collective sht together in an expanding economy (ie. economic growth).

But every time we've had a contracting economy (recession) its a disaster for most folk, so we try and avoid that.

I've no doubt someone can explain why that is, I just know that it is like this.

Seeing as economic activity is to a certain extent linked to energy/resource consumption, you can also see why environmentalists that demand that we consume less aren't overly popular with politicians who are trying to convince the electorate that standard of living isn't about to dissapear down the swanny.....as we are seeing now, reduced consumption equals reduced employment, which is a disaster for the individuals concerned.

Andy

[johnm]

The issue is about how folk spend their time and how added value is generated across the economy, some of that notably in the UK where a significant part of the economy is folk buying tat they don't need with money they don't have is not all that great from a personal point of view.

Examples of sustainable stuff is paying a premium for food so it's grown less efficiently but more "sustainably".

It's an immensely complex area and there is an argument that infinite growth on a finite planet isn't possible, but that assumes that we consume planetary resources, that's why "sustainability" is getting more attention. The idea is that we balance production and consumption of resources and the only net input is energy from the Sun. We then have a stable economy until the Sun becomes a supernova. The fly in the ointment is population growth, because that undermines stability by definition.

[Flyingfemme]

There are many ways to define “sustainability” but the environmentalists use particularly narrow definitions. For a business to be “sustainable” it needs financial sustainability as well. This doesn’t work well with modern business methods which require huge growth, big leverage and justintime logistics. A slower growth with financial reserves and a reasonable stockpile is the key to survival in these difficult times. Maybe the environmentalists want everyone to go broke?
The business person I have most admired very recently is Mike Gooley, who founded Trailfinders. He stated in the press that his company can pay the staff and their overheads for three years without selling a single ticket. That is sustainable.

[OCB]

Yep, growth is right on up there as one of the key economic indicators that has most people scratching their head. The planet ain’t get any bigger - but the population is.

Doesn’t that mean we will have less resources for the more people - meaning we should be trying to slow things the flock down - and make better use of the resources we have?

[Flying_john]

Since inflation is the debtors friend - and it certainly did me no harm back in the 80's - why doesn't any government let inflation run at 8 - 10% to dilute both government debt and personal debts (mortgages and the like). This would cause wage rises and price rises, but people seemed to be contented with annual 10% wage rises in the certain knowledge things naturally would cost more, but it was expected back then and you could get an apparent return on your investment too.

[CloudHound]

Read an article recently describing the difference between Labour, Work and Activity.

It used the idea of a table to help explain things.

Made me realise I’d been labouring all my life not working. Retired now I can finally Work and I see the difference.

Just wish the revelation had come years ago.

[Miscellaneous]

Doesn’t that mean we will have less resources for the more people - meaning we should be trying to slow things the flock down - and make better use of the resources we have?

It means we need ever increasing output to sustain the greater population, particularly those requiring ever more expensive resources to extend their lives and to bring those not so well off out of poverty.

And that's just for starters.

It's a kinda pyramid scheme, init.

[eltonioni]

The issue is about how folk spend their time and how added value is generated across the economy, some of that notably in the UK where a significant part of the economy is folk buying tat they don't need with money they don't have is not all that great from a personal point of view.

Examples of sustainable stuff is paying a premium for food so it's grown less efficiently but more "sustainably".

It's an immensely complex area and there is an argument that infinite growth on a finite planet isn't possible, but that assumes that we consume planetary resources, that's why "sustainability" is getting more attention. The idea is that we balance production and consumption of resources and the only net input is energy from the Sun. We then have a stable economy until the Sun becomes a supernova. The fly in the ointment is population growth, because that undermines stability by definition.

^^ this is nonsense. People have always consumed increasing amounts of unnecessary "tat" whether it's amber and seashell necklaces a million years ago or iPhones and second homes now .

The half-baked idea that population growth is unsustainable has been disproven generation after generation, underlined by the fact that in the 200 years Malthus came up with his ideas the planet's population is seven times larger, healthier, wealthier, well fed and longer lived. Humans technologise our way out of the growth problem before it arrives with evolutionary consequences.

For years I also thought that population growth was unsustainable, taking ideas from Jim Lovelock in particular. Nowadays those ideas are being propagated by the thinking luvvies latest Malthusian - David Attenborough. So once again Malthus's long-since disproven ideas are getting a fresh airing just as we're about to eliminate hunger and malaria once and for all. These ideas are (IMO) just the natural human fight or flight response to things that seem out of control so we want to keep things the same.

Nostalgia ain't what it used to be.

There is perhaps one thing that makes most people poorer, or at least less rich than they could be - hoarding wealth instead of spending wealth. Pension holders take note.

[johnm]

@eltonioni opinionated as usual.

The question was asked I gave some examples on the thought processes around as have you. Frankly we have no idea whether these ideas are nonsense or not they won't impact us we're too old and it will be a few generations further on before we see what plays out. Climate changes, whether man made or otherwise, will have a significant impact at some point as they have in the past. We might get struck by a meteorite or an asteroid.

All that said husbanding resources and being kind to the complex environment rather than trashing it makes sense just in terms of quality of life. Round here we see fields of pure green followed by pure yellow and we fields awash with colour and I know which I prefer

There is perhaps one thing that makes most people poorer, or at least less rich than they could be - hoarding wealth instead of spending wealth. Pension holders take note.

I was happily spending mine and will continue so to do, supporting local businesses even though the pot and other savings has reduced by eye watering sums in the blink of an eye.

[eltonioni]

@johnm you're entitled to your opinions but I believe what I wrote stands up a fact except where I pointed out where it's just opinion.

How is it factually different now than at any time in human history, as per your opinion?