For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
Umm, since when did 'libertarian' equate to to doing WTF you wanted, especially in contradiction to available evidence?

We are a privileged lot here.

Go read John Stuart Mill's classic "On Liberty". Then study the various critics of JS Mills's work.

I'm not defending his work - but it's a hell of a place to start.

If you can get into a philosophical discourse with me and some others here - and come out the other end with the same option, well - at least the price of ticket was worth it.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
OCB wrote:Umm, since when did 'libertarian' equate to to doing WTF you wanted, especially in contradiction to available evidence?.

It doesn't. That was me having a cheap shot at BillH for something he said on another thread. I should have used more smileys and quote marks.
Bill was good enough not to rise to my provocation. Sorry Bill.
And yes I have read JSM.
Reams of good research has been written about vaccinations, done by reliable people for sound organisations. There evidence is there for all to see. Yet there are people who doubt it and expose their children and the wider population to serious preventable diseases.

Andrew Wakefield wrote some invented stuff and by doing so has done untold damage. Yet there are people who continue to believe what he wrote and those supporting those views.

Discussions with and arguments brought by staunch anti-vaxxers are akin to those with and by flat-earthers.

Voluntary vaccination rates are dropping to levels that safety of individuals and groups of people (the none responders and those not yet vaccinated on account of their age, or those who cannot have a vaccination on account of a medical contraindication) is becoming endangered, so the question of compulsory vaccinations is brought up.

There are plenty of compulsions for those being part of society.

Not sure whether vaccinations would be the worst one to have.
kanga liked this
The trouble is that rational thought is in short supply and the areas of life where unscrupulous people reinforce prejudices for personal gain or self aggrandisement seem to grow daily.

The old tabloids and noisy chap in the pub have been reinforced by social media in ways that are subtle and insidious and hugely powerful and refuting with fact is surprisingly ineffective.

We may look sophisticated but we haven’t moved on that much from the 18th century mob it seems :(
The trouble with herd immunity, as a parent, is that the statistics are all well and good, but if left un-immunized and your child becomes infected you can call it 'just one of those things' or 'natural causes' whereas if your child reacted seriously to a jab this would be due to an act of commission rather than omission on your part.

{Was there not a court case where a mother insisted that the best result for her child was for it to be not immunised, but that every other child should be, and the court upheld this view?}

In the end, late 80s we had our children immunised, but separate jabs rather than the then contentious 3 in 1. Given that each immunization must produce a reaction hitting an immature system with three at a time doesn't feel right, and at least one mother in our then village felt that her child was dramatically permanently affected by the MMR jab.
Last edited by Charles Hunt on Sat May 18, 2019 9:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
The risk of having a serious or fatal reaction to the measles infection is many times greater than having the same from the vaccine, there is no denying that.

In relation to single shots or polyvalent ones, more trips for shots reduces compliance and with that vaccination rates, the vaccine offers either just antigen or weakened virus to the immune system, depending on the type of vaccine, the immune system can easily cope with that. It deals with multiple simultaneous viral and bacterial attacks on a daily basis.

If it didn't people would all get properly ill after every jab.

It is this week 270 years since Jenner, the inventor of the small pox vaccine, was born.

If our forebears would have had the same attitude towards vaccines as staunch anti-vaxxers have today we would still have thousands of people affected and dying from that dreadful disease, the same goes for polio.
TopCat, Spooky liked this
Was the issue with MMR that only this vaccine was available on the NHS, not the 3 individual jabs? I recall that the whole MMR thing came up right when my 2 childre needed vaccinations - we were able to get the 3 individual vaccinations in France without issue.
I've ended up getting MMR an extra time in late teens after doctors scrawl on paperwork made a GP unsure whether I had a double vaccination or the triple and he didn't have a single shot available.

I do think parents should have the right to control how their children are brought up with those rights only impinged when their choices could impact others. It is a parents responsibility first and state should only get involved when parents are not being responsible, and there should be a pretty high bar to decide that.
matthew_w100 wrote:I'm sorry but I do not regard itchy skin, allergic reactions or even anaphylaxis as "harm". "Harm" is permanent. X is still zero.

There is no doubt that there are cases of more serious damage following vaccinations than a local reaction or being off colour for a few days.

However they are very very rare, and although nobody will (yet) be able to say with any certainty that these same people would have had a more serious version of the diseases should they have had the 'proper' version, it would stand to reason that they would.
kanga liked this
When I was a child, anyone in the vicinity who got an infection such as measles or mumps, we were rounded up and all thrown in together in order to “ get it” . I defy anyone who is having their child inoculated not to have a twinge of worry.
I remember it well after finishing initial training in the RN, before we all dispersed to the different corners of the globe, all queueing up with both sleeves rolled up for our injections - yellow fever, tetanus, and a host of others dished out by trainee sick berth attendants (SBAs). No such thing as an all in one jag back then. I also recall the swelling and under oxter pain afterwards.
Last edited by Bill McCarthy on Sat May 18, 2019 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.