Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.

Moderator: Flyin'Dutch'

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By eltonioni
#1692656
JoeC wrote:Scargill's not dead is he? :o

You and me are just middle class ponces who got lucky, we should at least make an effort to remember where we came from instead of imagining that we're somehow better.
By johnm
#1692657
@treborsnave you missed a bit:

The Migration Observatory is completely impartial. It promotes no political position and its analysis aims to enrich the public debate on migration regardless of the views of its users. As a result, it is important that the content of the Migration Observatory’s research is determined solely by its staff with the support of its Expert Advisory Board, and cannot be influenced by its financial supporters.
The objectivity and quality of the Migration Observatory’s research is assessed by its Expert Advisory Board. It also follows rigorous peer review processes to ensure that its work is accurate and balanced.



The kind of organisations that fund research tend to be philanthropic and open and liberal in outlook.
They want the truth in answer to research questions . If they like the answer then fine. If they don't like the answer they then have to ask should they? If the answer is no, then there is a problem and they will typically consider what can be done about it. This has been the role of outfits like the Wellcome trust and Joseph Rowntree Foundation for many years, I have worked with some of them on techniques for the preservation and long term accessibility of research data and the idea that they might have a hidden agenda is laughable.

As I was born and brought up in Wigan, I am as familiar as Orwell with the issues he writes about. I spent my early years in the kind of housing he describes. The critical failure of successive UK govts is to manage disruptive change and facilitate social mobility and that is still the issue and it's still a domestic issue.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1692658
eltonioni wrote:Try getting you info from Shirebook WMC instead of a charity in the name of a long dead multi millionaire.


Are those people getting their information (unkowingly) from different (and living) multi-millionaires? It's not evidence. Evidence stands up to scrutiny. I have no doubts what you'll be told, or what the candidates in the forthcoming Peterborough by-election will be told. That doesn't make it fact or stand up to scrutiny.
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1692660
PaulB wrote:
eltonioni wrote:Try getting you info from Shirebook WMC instead of a charity in the name of a long dead multi millionaire.


Are those people getting their information (unkowingly) from different (and living) multi-millionaires? It's not evidence. Evidence stands up to scrutiny. I have no doubts what you'll be told, or what the candidates in the forthcoming Peterborough by-election will be told. That doesn't make it fact or stand up to scrutiny.


Shirebrook is also the HQ of Mike Ashley's Sports Direct. Try the (not Sheffield Aero) club if you fancy flying in for a £97 hamburger. :)

"They" (not us obviously, we're too clever) tend to get more information from day to day life than Rupert Murdoch / Nigel farage / insert choice of evil wrongdoer.
User avatar
By PaulB
#1692662
So is all that happened the fault of the EU or is the EU just a convenient scapegoat?

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/20 ... ers-brexit

Rightly or wrongly, an industry that had employed the majority of the male workforce for generations was destroyed in an instant and *our governments* did precious little to help those rendered workless acquire new skills.

The Rowntrees, Cadburys et al. would turn in their graves if they knew what had been done to a British workforce by successive British governments.

Ashley has just been allowed to exploit this and become very rich in the process.

For Shirebrook you could probably read Welsh valleys, and a number of other places.
By johnm
#1692664
Information on every day life gleaned by individuals may or may not be representative of the overall picture. In many cases it comes from the experience of the challenges of every day life, some of which perhaps ought to be mitigated by government policy and action, which in turn causes people to seek scapegoats.

In my youth I met many who were hardworking and had a high degree of self respect despite grinding poverty. We also knew the dirty, lazy and feckless and some of us worked hard at school and college (commonly called night school as it was evening classes after work) and took opportunities to use that skill and knowledge to move away and into more congenial surroundings.

The evil wrongdoers exploit (or even create) negative experience for personal gain or self aggrandisement or both and it's that which takes them beneath contempt. The responsible ones are those seeking to understand the problems and address them.

Many of the facilities we used in 1950s to improve our lot we can no longer afford apparently. Libraries, evening classes, sports and recreational facilities, parks and gardens all being cut or taken on by the charitable sector.

None of this has anything to do with politics outside the UK and that's the key issue we face.
User avatar
By kanga
#1692666
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:..

Much of the red top and brexiteer's ire is directed at immigrants and the EU, it might be more useful to direct it to HMG for miss managing the essentials which have lead to the requirements to import work force.


In the case of workforce, I believe it is less a case of 'mismanagement' than of a deliberate, ideological, decision in early '80s that 'strategic workforce planning' was and should not be the business of central (or any) government. 'The market would take care of it' and 'whatever the efficiency of the free market yielded would be, by definition, efficient and therefore good'. This affected all clinical skills but also, for instance, all building trade ones as well. It was mitigated for a while as those trained under a previous ethos were still at work, but was visibly aggravated when they started to retire; some early under other pressures, eg workload, lack of support, embezzlement of pension contributions ..

A further mitigation came to be lost as armed forces' training system elements, whose graduates later entered civil workforce after leaving services, were steadily outsourced in the name of the same 'efficiency'; as have some military functions, incidentally leaving to a much reduced deployable force. Following military flying training and the SAR helicopter force, I gather the latest function to be privatised is military bases' fire sections and their training. The initial workforces for all of these had been trained within the forces at HMG's expense, but when they retire from where are going to come the trained replacements ? Or will no contractors respond to the 'invitation to tender' in the next contract round ?

The importation of skilled labour whose countries' nations or societies had taken a different approach, whether Dutch doctors or Polish plumbers or Bengali curry chefs, was the unsurprising 'free market' response. But if media-fuelled (and Ministerially encouraged) hostility, and improved economies 'back home' or in other 'foreign' (to the worker) nations have equally unsurprisingly induced some of those who came now to leave. This might be a Polish plumber going back to Poland with savings and a hometown which can now support a new plumbing business, or a curry chef going to Germany, or a Portuguese geriatric nurse looking at the salary on offer in Canada and jumping at it.
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By OCB
#1692691
The lack of investment in skilled labour in the Uk - I did read something a few years back that suggested the trend away from organisations investing in multi year apprenticeships or even taking in “bright school leavers”, with the aim of growing them up through the organisation actually started in the mid 60s, around the time the first tranche of white collar jobs were being lost to computerisation of back office.

That, obviously was before the UK’s entry into the Common Market.

Certainly in the very early 90s when I was looking at this subject academically- “economists” were trying to avoid overtly pointing to a near fanatical adherence to ideology in the 80s UK economic policy but did point to the lack of tax incentives for not just training, but especially R&D - a well known and relatively stable “lever/multiplier”.

The short term economic mentality and uncertainty induced by politicians effin around with interest rates to finesse election cycles compounded the issues, which I think I would struggle to explain to young business grads today :shock:
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By johnm
#1692694
@OCB I didn’t see the trend start in the 60s and was a beneficiary of well established company training schemes in the late 60s and early 70s.

By the mid 80s those schemes had almost entirely disappeared though and we’ve been paying the price for that and the lazy “markets fix anything” philosophy ever since.

It’s like taking strychnine and being told the anti-dote is more strychnine :(
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By eltonioni
#1692703
johnm wrote: By the mid 80s those schemes had almost entirely disappeared though and we’ve been paying the price for that and the lazy “markets fix anything” philosophy ever since.

I've not heard that phrase before, what is its provenance?
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1692710
PaulB wrote:So is all that happened the fault of the EU or is the EU just a convenient scapegoat?

I didn't say that. I was trying to explain why people in Shirebrook might think that the EU isn't working especially well for them. Nuances of inter / intra / supranational governmental policy don't put food on the table when your life is hard enough already and the neighbours don't have English as a first language.

People who try to say that the poor EU government makes up poor UK government really is missing the point, especially if they are telling it to a Shirebrook mum who's on the way to work earlies at Sports Direct where Polish is the first language. If the EU is the answer, the question is wrong.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1692716
eltonioni wrote:If the EU is the answer, the question is wrong.


The question is why is there such widespread animosity against the EU when in reality it is that those things that matter most to most people most of the time are (not) organised in Westminster.

Poor education, a dysfunctional political class and red top rags is the answer to that one.
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By OCB
#1692717
johnm wrote:@OCB I didn’t see the trend start in the 60s and was a beneficiary of well established company training schemes in the late 60s and early 70s.

By the mid 80s those schemes had almost entirely disappeared though and we’ve been paying the price for that and the lazy “markets fix anything” philosophy ever since.

It’s like taking strychnine and being told the anti-dote is more strychnine :(


The 80s political decisions to take an ablative/scorched earth approach to multi-generational and community defining industries outside the M25 bubble, and deliberately leave it to “market forces” to backfill, was the end of long term native talent skills training- but it started well before (from what I’ve read).

I’ll be kind and say the modern evidence suggests the 80s policies failed to meet the economic and social objectives which contemporary analyses put forward at the time.

It wasn’t my thesis, but in terms of disruptive technology triggers that had social consequences- the automation of certain banking and insurance back office functions did happen “in bulk” as of the mid 60s, that’s a matter of economic fact AFAIK (happy to be corrected, as ever)

The automation of “repetitive” white collar “clerk” work was an acknowledged trend. It might not have been the ideal transition from “hand craft” to “machine”, but it doesn’t seem to have had a massive social impact at the time.

I saw that at a micro level in the early 90s when I effectively made about 30 well educated analysts “redundant” by automating their work. In fact, all I did was automate the grindingly dull jobs of putting together the data they got presented with - and with which they turned into “business intelligence”. They freed up half their day to start doin creative work rather than being inefficient spreadsheet monkeys.
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By OCB
#1692742
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
eltonioni wrote:If the EU is the answer, the question is wrong.


The question is why is there such widespread animosity against the EU when in reality it is that those things that matter most to most people most of the time are (not) organised in Westminster.

Poor education, a dysfunctional political class and red top rags is the answer to that one.


FD - you look at the world as perfectly well educated and throughly experienced (western taught?) physician.

You’re given up your critical thought with the assertions you made, if i read you correctly - which I guess is more human emotion than qualified assertion.

That’s not to say you are wrong of course,
and debate on here isn’t “academically qualified”.

I could reduce the “poor education, dysfunctional politics and red top media”, but I’m sure some on here would argue the sum is greater than the individual parts.

I honestly think, with absolutely no judgement or criticism, you are falling into the value trap where the belief is that (current) education, (current) media and (current)politics “rule” opinion.

Neither the science, nor the much dodgier pseudo-evidence based studies conclude that the Bravo Sierra that the likes of media muppets such as Sky spout actually has an impact on how people vote.

At a sociological level, I find it fascinating that politicians still continue to think they can influence (short term) voter opinion via paid media - but I honestly tuck that away as “historical anachronism”. It’s part of the election ritual, it keeps lots of people in employment - even though it’s been proven to be ineffective.
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User avatar
By eltonioni
#1692743
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
eltonioni wrote:If the EU is the answer, the question is wrong.


The question is why is there such widespread animosity against the EU when in reality it is that those things that matter most to most people most of the time are (not) organised in Westminster.

Poor education, a dysfunctional political class and red top rags is the answer to that one.

That's a big question, but I'll take a stab without falling back on the tired trope that other people are stupid (racist, bigots) if they have animosity to the EU, though I'm not sure that "animosity" is especially widespread.

Because it's unnecessary.
Last edited by eltonioni on Fri May 10, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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