Non aviation content. Play nice – No religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By eltonioni
#1664582
Cessna57 wrote: Does anyone in the country really actually believe we are going to be better off?


Yes.

However, it's a question as ridiculous as asking if the Earth is flat, and my answer is equally preposterous.

By framing the question to agree with what you believe you will draw a different conclusion. Your framing vis Brexit is no different to that of a flat earther vis globulism, the difference being that we scientifically determine that the Earth is a globe with evidence, whereas you're determining Brexit by rubbing your crystal ball with a greasy rag. I have some Swarfega.
By johnm
#1664584
Faith is about religion, future planning is about evidence and/or educated guesswork coupled with systematic action.

I conclude that Brexit is a religion :D
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1664592
eltonioni wrote:But you are planning for the UK to be part of a new nation called Europe. The clear evidence is that the People don't want that.


And many people who can see the benefits of working together on a joint platform that the EU offers agree with you and are equally against a one Nation Europe.

That some very vocal people currently in the higher echelons in the does not mean that this is the future. As you say there are plenty of people who are against that and not just in the UK.
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User avatar
By eltonioni
#1664598
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
eltonioni wrote:But you are planning for the UK to be part of a new nation called Europe. The clear evidence is that the People don't want that.


And many people who can see the benefits of working together on a joint platform that the EU offers agree with you and are equally against a one Nation Europe.


Most people would absolutely agree with the overarching sentiment of cooperation. The platform is the problem though, because its overarching purpose is that One Nation Europe. It is a political power construct that works against the wishes (and many would say the prosperity) of the People of Europe.

Ongoing failure over decades to reverse the ongoing federalisation forces some of us to conclude that something serious needs to happen before something worse does. Voting to Leave was a difficult but necessary decision for me, along with lots of others who did the same.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
#1664603
eltonioni wrote:Ongoing failure over decades to reverse the ongoing federalisation forces some of us to conclude that something serious needs to happen before something worse does. Voting to Leave was a difficult but necessary decision for me, along with lots of others who did the same.


And that is fair comment.

I am forever the opimist in these matters and am pretty sure that there will be no federalisation for some time to come - neither in our or our kids lives. If future generations decide that a federal model is what they want then they can take that further.

Leaving seems to me to be throwing out the baby with the bathwater and with the UK leaving both the UK and the EU will be poorer as a strong support for those who oppose the likes of Juncker is necessary.

I also fear that the price for leaving to the UK and the UK people will be a very high one to pay.
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By Cessna57
#1664609
eltonioni wrote:
Cessna57 wrote: Does anyone in the country really actually believe we are going to be better off?


Yes.

However, it's a question as ridiculous as asking if the Earth is flat, and my answer is equally preposterous.

By framing the question to agree with what you believe you will draw a different conclusion. Your framing vis Brexit is no different to that of a flat earther vis globulism, the difference being that we scientifically determine that the Earth is a globe with evidence, whereas you're determining Brexit by rubbing your crystal ball with a greasy rag. I have some Swarfega.


No, that's not true.. I haven't framed the question to agree with my bias. Also, neither of us have an answer yet, I haven't rubbed a crystal ball to get an answer, there isn't an answer YET.

I simply asked "Does anyone actually believe we are going to be better off after Brexit?"

You have answered "Yes" that you believe we will be.

I can only think that you mean we will be "better off" in a non fiscal way. I.E. Although we will be poorer, "having control" equates to being better off.

The problem with this is that works fine if you have enough money to eat. If you don't have enough money to eat (some will not), then you're not fussed who has control of the laws.
User avatar
By eltonioni
#1664613
Cessna57 wrote:No, that's not true.. I haven't framed the question to agree with my bias. Also, neither of us have an answer yet, I haven't rubbed a crystal ball to get an answer, there isn't an answer YET.

I simply asked "Does anyone actually believe we are going to be better off after Brexit?"

You have answered "Yes" that you believe we will be.

I can only think that you mean we will be "better off" in a non fiscal way. I.E. Although we will be poorer, "having control" equates to being better off.

The problem with this is that works fine if you have enough money to eat. If you don't have enough money to eat (some will not), then you're not fussed who has control of the laws.


Oh you have. You really have. Your one dimensional rebuttal, underlines it.

So did I. So did mine. I've explained and understood my bias though.

Edit: I'm uncomfortable with what I just wrote in so much as it is too personal and I'm trying to maintain the mutual respect and decorum we've managed so far on this thread. If you felt offended please accept my apology.

On the wider point about the economy, I fear that many people have been suckered by appeals from authority instead of peeking beyond the headlines and lead paragraphs. This is the central thrust of Project Fear and it is working on many intelligent educated people BECAUSE it is an appeal from authority.

Taking for example the presentation of economic growth figures. All sorts of numbers are being bandied around, but they are consistently discussed as if they are actual money instead of a made up projection of something that has might, under specific yet undetermined circumstances, if nobody performs any mitigation, increase ever so slightly less less than another made up projection that isn't true either.

This would make a snake oil salesman blush, but strap on a corporate profit warning from a company with failing management, alongside an LSE paper from an EU funded academic, and bingo,...sane, educated people drink it in and repeat it to trusting family and friends, giving it a gloss of socially responsible credibility that it just doesn't deserve. They then repeat it, embellish it... and on it goes.

None (that's NONE) of the scary numbers are anywhere close to 2007/8, and yet here we all are in 2019 with a nation that's more prosperous and socially responsible than ever.
Last edited by eltonioni on Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Cessna57
#1664637
@eltonioni
I couldn’t possibly be offended, I find this an interesting conversation, trying to understand an opposing viewpoint.

I don’t think either of us is trying to be personal/insulting (I’m not, I hope I don’t across as so), I just can’t understand why people voted leave.

Which is why I asked the question, “does anyone believe we will be better off”

If someone says to me “I voted leave because I believe we’ll be financially better off”, then I could understand.

I don’t believe anyone voted leave because they wanted to screw up the country. Let’s start from that premise.

Secondly I don’t believe that anyone voted leave because they’re daft.

So, I still fail to see why anyone voted leave.

I can sum up why I voted stay in (nearly)one sentence.

“I think we’ll be financially better off, I quite like being part of Europe, I like Italy, France, and I’d quite like to be in the same ‘club’ as them. For cultural reasons as well as trade reasons, I’d rather be European than Little Sam with a ‘special relationship’. “

Is it possible to sum up why you voted to leave in a similar way?

My mother in law says “I dunno, I thought it’d be change”, my brother in law says “thought we should give it a try”, my mate says “**** up didn’t I?”

I’m wondering if there is a better answer than theirs?
It’s not because I’m not open to the debate, it’s because I can’t see a reason, and no one will tell me one that makes sense.
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By johnm
#1664640
We've rehearsed these issues time and time again.

No-one knows what Brexit or Remain will bring as we're not clairvoyant. However all the tried and tested analytical methods to assess risk and opportunity come down on the Remain side thus far.

There is no appetite for realisation of the vision of a United States of Europe at this point or for the foreseeable future and indeed there is no consistent vision amongst those who dream it might one day happen, anymore than there's any consistency over what form Brexit might take. The EU, though young, has been remarkably successful at achieving a valuable compromise scenario of collaboration and co-operation. As others have said Brexit is a baby and bathwater scenario and we'd be better engaging and influencing.

I have said more than once that UK can't make up its mind whether it wants to be a completely independent state (though there's not really any such thing anymore with so many international agreements now in place), a member of the EU or the 51st State of the Union. We've taken one off the table it seems, where next?? If we take the independent state viewpoint we could make a dramatic improvement in our fortunes by taking the Swiss model, leave NATO and negotiate a trade deal with the EU, we could stay in EASA too :twisted: .
By Colonel Panic
#1664645
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I am forever the optimist in these matters and am pretty sure that there will be no federalisation for some time to come - neither in our or our kids lives.

On what basis - other than “I would like to think that...” - do you base that assertion? It seems to me that everything that has happened to date suggests the opposite. Whether that be Schengen, the erosion of national vetos, ever closer diktats re domestic taxation, the widespread (& from here on in compulsory) adoption of the Euro for new members & the preparation for a European Army. I could go on ...
By Colonel Panic
#1664647
In fact I can’t think of a single instance where the EU plc has said “Do you know what, let’s give back XYZ to the nation members ‘cos they are just as if not more capable of doing it than the member states are.”
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