[johnm]

in a freeish democracy with a freeish media scene, the solution is simple:

Unfortunately it isn't.

First of all people tend to vote for parties not candidates.

The parties select candidates who will fit the mould.

The structure of constituencies can mean that a party with the losing overall popular vote gets the power.

There is no simple or ideal solution, but at present the whole system is at risk because of a weak and venal government with zero effective opposition. For democracy that is the real worry, because it means that there are no policies driven by principle and no evidence backed programmes that will work.

Whatever your views on the pros and cons of Brexit the referendum was a symptom of this deep seated malaise because it was about trying to marginalise UKIP and appease the right wing of the Tory party, so that Cameron could win an election and stay in power.

If having that political structure is what taking back control means, it'll just raise a hollow laugh from me

Devolution should be a side show in this discussion really, because it ought to be about local democracy and local accountability for local issues, not international diplomacy.

[Paultheparaglider]

One thing is clear. The BBC can't be trusted. Anyone who watched the match might have noticed that the BBC added the points from the final English try to the Welsh score. To be fair, it was reversed a few seconds later. But...

PS Thanks to wifey for that spot.

PPS Great match. My money was on Wales until close to the end.

[Paul_Sengupta]

It was certainly a close game.

[Paultheparaglider]

No question. Walkovers are never exciting.

[Propwash]

Whatever your views on the pros and cons of Brexit the referendum was a symptom of this deep seated malaise because it was about trying to marginalise UKIP and appease the right wing of the Tory party,

Those who have waited since 1992 and the creation of the political union that is the EU really don't care why it was held; they are just glad they were at last granted the democratic right that should never have been denied them.

Devolution should be a side show in this discussion really, because it ought to be about local democracy and local accountability for local issues, not international diplomacy.

Maybe, but having introduced it on a national basis for three home nations it was, is and would be a disgrace if it were limited to those terms for England. Equity cuts both ways and I cannot see how any nationalist in the other home nations could or would deny England the same rights to self determination without justifiable accusations of hypocrisy.

PPS Great match. My money was on Wales until close to the end.PPS Great match.

Do try and have more faith. This England team seem to be making a habit of last minute escapes. Credit to Wales for all the turn overs.

PW

[johnm]

Those who have waited since 1992 and the creation of the political union that is the EU really don't care why it was held; they are just glad they were at last granted the democratic right that should never have been denied them.

Classic case of solving the wrong problem you really should care, because Brexit relies on the right problem being solved and there's zero sign of that right now

[Propwash]

So you keep saying, but Tim Cook from Apple is only the latest to disagree with you. It looks more and more as though all the horror stories about the dire consequences of voting to leave are just that, stories. I am starting to wonder at what point the die hard Remain voters will have to start conceding that. Even had we voted to stay there would have been downturns and bad economic news, but blaming them all on Brexit is looking a bit desperate now.

PW

[johnm]

Unless Tim Cook is clairvoyant he doesn't know what will happen in two years time when Brexit actually occurs. It hasn't yet.

I've been entirely consistent all the way through these discussions. My concerns are about the capacity of the UK govt to run anything effectively Brexit or no Brexit and that's the point here.

[Boing_737]

Tim Cook's only interest is for the British public to keep buying iPhones no matter what state the country is in, or how run-of-the-mill his products become...

[Propwash]

I've been entirely consistent all the way through these discussions.

And the fascinating thing is that I do believe that you believe that.

PW

[johnm]

I've been entirely consistent all the way through these discussions.

And the fascinating thing is that I do believe that you believe that.

PW

I thought it was you who supported project fantasy

[leiafee]

Well, as no offence was intended, and even though I struggle to see how any could be inferred from what I actually wrote, I apologise if any was taken.

However, given your obvious passion for Welsh Nationalism, I am pretty sure that you wouldn't like it if even a minority of English MPs were permitted to debate and vote on Welsh domestic affairs in your assembly.

Why would you think that the English would feel differently following devolution?

If devolution really meant a federal model of a UK I'd agree. Indeed I'd probably settle for that over the Welsh independance I actually want.

But it doesn't.

I'd be bang alongside the idea of an English Parliment if it did.

But instead we've got rubbishy watered down versions of devolution all of which have have different reserved powers, different funding models and different electoral systems in Wales, Scotland and NI.

Then there's Westminster left to sort of square the differences, still in charge of some bits and being treated as a sort of English parliment which is partly is anyway by force of numbers, but not really because of the points you raise.

Any Englishman concerned about the West Lothian Question ought to be as pro home rule as I am, logically speaking.

What we've got at the moment is a bugger's muddle which fair to nobody and where everyone thinks they're getting the thin end of the stick.

As for discussing sport and politics in the same post, it is only feminists who think that men are incapable of multi-tasking too.

Well for what it's worth I enjoyed the game - if you like the game at all you can't not enjoy seeing it go to the last five mins hanging on for any last chance mistakes to grab on to.

[Spooky]

Well for what it's worth I enjoyed the game - if you like the game at all you can't not enjoy seeing it go to the last five mins hanging on for any last chance mistakes to grab on to.

Still think this is one of the greatest moments in Welsh rugby I was there too and still treasure my ticket

[Propwash]

Leia,

To be clear, and I think I have said it many times on here, I didn't support devolution along national lines and certainly not in the way it was introduced by Tony Blair as a means of undermining the rising popularity of the SNP in Scotland in order to shore up Labour's vote there. Like too many of his "back of a fag packet" ideas it didn't work out as planned did it? He had obviously never heard of the 6 P's in relation to proper thought before action. However, having established separate parliaments/assemblies I can't see how the genie can ever be put back into the bottle, so in order to be fair to all parties in the union I personally see no alternative to establishing a federal model along the lines of that in Australia which works pretty well for them. The current situation is untenable, and having already seen measures on the NHS in England pushed through only because of the votes of nationalist MPs whose own constituents would be unaffected, I sense a growing awareness in England (probably the least politically motivated of the home nations as a rule) of how unfair the current constitutional arrangements are.

The problem for Wales (and I suspect you won't like this fact but that doesn't make it less true) is that many current laws and arrangements are "England and Wales" in nature and impact, whereas Scotland has always retained its own legal system and therefore mostly separate laws, even where they mirror those elsewhere in the UK. That doesn't prevent a truly federal system being adopted for the UK but does make it slightly more complicated and is probably the reason for the dog's breakfast arrangements that were put in place for Wales rather than a full parliament as Scotland was given. England, of course, was only offered the chance of voluntary disembowelment as a nation into artificial semi-fuedal fiefdoms which would go nowhere near answering democratic disparity with the other home nations, in fact would have made it many times worse. Thankfully even the politically apathetic English could see that and rejected it.

The biggest objections to re-visiting the constitutional arrangements will of course come from a self-interested political class at Westminster, from all parts of the UK, because such a federal system will inevitably mean a wholesale reduction in the number of members of what will become the federal parliament (ie the rump Westminster), their workload and responsibilities and powers being greatly lessened. (In fact I could never understand how, as more and more decisions were parcelled out to the EU there wasn't a drastic reduction in Westminster seats after Maastricht which I suspect has been at least part of the reason for the recent high-profile scandals there among some members - idle hands and all that - but that is for another thread). Westminster to many members, including some of the honest hard-working ones, is like a very exclusive private club rather than a modern legislature. Any proposed changes along the lines I would like to see will almost certainly produce a political bloodbath that will make arguments over Brexit seem remarkably tame.

In the meantime, and until there is such pressure for change that Westminster can't resist it any longer (sound familiar?) I struggle to see how you, or any other nationalist from Scotland, Wales or NI, can fairly object to the exclusion of their MPs from debates and votes on all matters in England for which their own devolved administrations have responsibility at home.

I know that Wales only voted by the narrowest of margins to establish a devolved administration in Cardiff, which would suggest that many of your fellow countrymen don't share your view that England (by which I presume you meant Westminster - which isn't of course the same thing) treats Wales as some sort of modern colony. I wonder how much appetite there would be in Wales today for even greater devolution into a full federal system? Scotland I suspect would be more enthusiastic. I suppose in the fullness of time we will find out.

PW

[Bill Haddow]

I struggle to see how you, or any other nationalist from Scotland, Wales or NI, can fairly object to the exclusion of their MPs from debates and votes on all matters in England for which their own devolved administrations have responsibility at home.

PW

'Cos of the Barnett Formula, PW.

If Westminster MPs vote to increase spending on, for example, the NHS, or reduce spending on, for example, motorways, in England then that affects the size of the block grant the Treasury gives to Holyrood. The division of this spend among the various domestic budgets for health, education, infrastructure etc is decided by Holyrood but the total level of public spending is effectively set by Westminster's decisions on domestic spending in England. Hence Scottish MPs have a legitimate interest.

Twas the same pre-devolution when the dosh went to the Scottish Secretary for him to divvy-up, and lies at the root of what Enoch named "The West Lothian Question".

Nobody likes it much, but unless we go to either a completely federal or entirely unified nation we are stuck with it, since for the past 40 years no-one has come up with a better system.

Bill H