Use this forum to flag up examples of red tape and gold plate
By Mutley
#1356243
Have recently applied for a CPL/IR. Sent in application, waited just over two weeks then phoned, only to be told that the current turnaround time is 18 working days (that's nearly 4 weeks!). It's not even a busy time of year!

The FTO which does the training has to sign off the application and is regularly audited. Aside from the forms (filled in or countersigned by a CAA-approved examiner and / or the ATO) the other primary evidence is my log book - which could be a complete work of fiction and there is no feasible way that the CAA could check it. One has to ask what value the CAA are adding in the course of the 4-week delay. It wouldn't be so bad if the fees were commensurate with the level of service .....

All of my FAA licences were issued on the spot by the examiner, and that system doesn't even have the "safety net" of the ATO and the required record-keeping associated with it. An FAA-style system might be too much to hope for but 18 working days ..... !!!!
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By Keef
#1356261
I've suggested the FAA-style "Temporary Airman Certificate" several times, but it seems the CAA doesn't trust the examiners to get it right.
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By flybymike
#1356287
1983.
GFT passed on a Monday, typewritten licence receved on Thursday the same week.
That's progress for you.
By Mutley
#1356317
I've had a number of students over the years whose licence applications have been bounced. Every time it has been an admin issue (or a lack of understanding of the rules by the CAA bod who was processing the licence) rather than anything meaningful.

My FAA examiners made sure I met all the requirements before we even got in the aircraft - and if there were any queries we addressed then there and then. Because they knew what was coming the school and the instructor made sure I met all the requirements before I went to see the examiner .....
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By Genghis the Engineer
#1356414
Keef wrote:I've suggested the FAA-style "Temporary Airman Certificate" several times, but it seems the CAA doesn't trust the examiners to get it right.


The point of the temporary airman's certificate, surely, is that it gives the CAA time tio ensure that the examiner got it right - and to deal with that if they didn't, with the minimum of embarrassment to everybody.

Yes, I fully agree with you Keef.

G
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By alexbrett2
#1356484
Why can't they post online what day's applications they're working on - I just spent 18 minutes on the phone to find out they're working today on applications received on the 3rd (i.e. 18 working days ago), despite their website when I submitted the paperwork claiming they were taking approximately 10 working days...

In fact the website still says 10 working days: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?catid=175 - "For your information processing of Pilot Licence applications is currently taking 10 working days."

(my IMC application was received on the 4th, so fingers crossed it'll come through early next week - so frustrating as if I'd known it was going to be almost double what they'd said I'd have taken a day off and gone to Gatwick to get it done in person!)
By 3 Point
#1358220
Well, I got my temporary FAA ATP certificate at the debrief for my checkride but then it all went wrong. Some sort of discrepancy in the paperwork held things up and eventually my temporary certificate expired and I had to ask the original examiner to issue an extension which he was able to do. I eventually got the certificate several months later after discovering that the delay was due to an internal FAA foul up.

Of course I had a temporary certificate so I could exercise the privilege but nevertheless, the FAA aren't always perfect either.

What's that rule about no aircraft being able to fly until it is subject to at least its own weight in paperwork!!

Happy landings!

3 Point
By greggj
#1359691
It took two weeks to get my licence, but I did the whole submitting online. Didn't even had to sent the logbook. Temporary licence issued by the examiner would be great, but initially I'd fly from the club anyway and so they were happy to let me do that - albeit on instructors licence and of course no Pax.
My night rating was issued within an hour of me seeing a clerk at the CAA, which was quick too. Can't really complain.
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By Keef
#1359741
I think the folks on the desk are held in high regard. It's the rulebook they have to work to that is in need of modernisation.

1) Desk folks are capable, so let them validate English Proficiency (it's not exactly rocket science, is it?).
2) Examiners are capable to judge flying skills and their decision is accepted by the CAA, so let them issue temporary airman certificates.
By Johnyev
#1364936
Mutley wrote:I've had a number of students over the years whose licence applications have been bounced. Every time it has been an admin issue (or a lack of understanding of the rules by the CAA bod who was processing the licence) rather than anything meaningful.

My FAA examiners made sure I met all the requirements before we even got in the aircraft - and if there were any queries we addressed then there and then. Because they knew what was coming the school and the instructor made sure I met all the requirements before I went to see the examiner .....


Absolutely
All details in order before the flight takes place, if successful, a 90 day temporary one issued on the spot with a business card telling you to call them if not received by 60 days.
Said pilot can then go and learn how to fly as P1 immediately while at high level of proficiency not sit around or PUT for the next month!
It's ridiculous!!!
By Hmmnnn
#1365267
Keef wrote:I think the folks on the desk are held in high regard. It's the rulebook they have to work to that is in need of modernisation.

1) Desk folks are capable, so let them validate English Proficiency (it's not exactly rocket science, is it?).
2) Examiners are capable to judge flying skills and their decision is accepted by the CAA, so let them issue temporary airman certificates.


The rulebook is written by EASA which grants pilot privileges to holders of Licences. EASA Licences must be in a certain format and must be carried when (flying) exercising the contained privileges.

By not allowing 'Temporary Certificates" the CAA is NOT Gold Plating anything. To issue them would require a change in EASA rules which I cannot see happening in this case.

For national Licences the suggestion for "Temporary Certificates" could be made now, by those who think they would be worthwhile, as the CAA has asked for comments on changes to the ANO.

Personally I like the idea of a 'Temporary Licence' whilst awaiting the issue of the official one, but the only effect this would have would be the ability to, immediately post Test, be PIC without an Instructor authorising the flight and to be able to carry passengers - neither of which are of such huge benefit that it would be worth the probable hassle to the CAA.
By riverrock
#1365268
AMEs can print out medical certs. Can we get examiners to print out licences? Or would it be too much effort to teach them to use computers? CAA's job suddenlly becomes quicker, lighter, and only auditing required.
Examiner has to check that the PPL (or whatever) course has been completed. Why does the CAA have to check it all again?
By Johnyev
#1367055
Hmmnnn wrote:
Keef wrote:I think the folks on the desk are held in high regard. It's the rulebook they have to work to that is in need of modernisation.

1) Desk folks are capable, so let them validate English Proficiency (it's not exactly rocket science, is it?).
2) Examiners are capable to judge flying skills and their decision is accepted by the CAA, so let them issue temporary airman certificates.


The rulebook is written by EASA which grants pilot privileges to holders of Licences. EASA Licences must be in a certain format and must be carried when (flying) exercising the contained privileges.

By not allowing 'Temporary Certificates" the CAA is NOT Gold Plating anything. To issue them would require a change in EASA rules which I cannot see happening in this case.

For national Licences the suggestion for "Temporary Certificates" could be made now, by those who think they would be worthwhile, as the CAA has asked for comments on changes to the ANO.

Personally I like the idea of a 'Temporary Licence' whilst awaiting the issue of the official one, but the only effect this would have would be the ability to, immediately post Test, be PIC without an Instructor authorising the flight and to be able to carry passengers - neither of which are of such huge benefit that it would be worth the probable hassle to the CAA.


It's a huge benefit to the newly qualified pilot!
"Did you pass?" , "Yes", "Congratulations!! So you're a proper pilot now?" " Yes" "When are you take by me on that long promised flight?" " oh I can't actually use my newly acquired PPL until someone who possibly has never actually flown before in an office has rechecked all the paperwork that my school and separately an examiner has already checked and then issue the piece of paper!"
" how long will that take?"
" I don't know and neither do they!"

Now of course I'm being a little facetious but I think you get my drift.
Change the rules CAA/EASA and relieve yourselves of some of the work load.
By James33
#1381925
I could fly straight away after my skills test (French DGAC)... I got a piece of paper valid for 2 months.