[Dave W]

Currently, for a PPL SEP to fly a Touring Motor Glider (such as Dimona, Falke, Grob 109B etc) it is necessary to conduct training for issue of a Class Rating, and then find a TMG Examiner (currently a very rare beast) to conduct a skills test.

I am led to understand (although it is very difficult to find definitive information on this - there's nothing useful in CAP804) that the training syllabus and skills test does NOT require the engine to be shut down and propeller feathered in flight. If this is so (in fact, even if it isn't), conversion is no more complex than converting to a tailwheel aircraft, which can be undertaken with appropriate Differences training with far less practical difficulty, bureaucracy and expense.

I propose that the CAA lobby EASA to delete the TMG Class Rating, and replace with a requirement for appropriate Differences Training.

Any comments, for or against?

[Flyin'Dutch']

For, of course.

The current situation is actually more bonkers than that.

I have been flying SLMGs for yonks but despite that the rating disappeared when I bought my new EASA licence. Being eagle-eyed (and having been alerted on here that things do disappear from licences when making the applications, I contacted them straight away.

The reasoning for not issuing the rating on the new EASA Licence was that 'they needed evidence that i was entitled to it by virtue of having flown SLMGs by way of logbook entries.

I tried pointing out that the rating page of the old licence surely was enough. Nope, it needed to be a logbook entry.

So I found the original logbook entry made by someone from the CAA in 1994 which stated that I met the requirements and based on which I was given the licence, copied the page and all was well.

[rf3flyer]

I fly a TMG and in my opinion there is nothing about them (about mine anyway) that requires any particular skill of specialised knowledge. The glide ratio is better than any SEP, they can turn tighter, they have airbrakes, they're taildraggers, some have single ignition, some have feathering props and all can be airstarted. What's the big deal?
In mine the one potent lesson I learned early on was, on short final, decide whether the glide will be controlled with throttle or spoiler and don't get them confused in the heat of the moment. I have never repeated that mistake.

[allout]

The CAA's response to EASA's original licencing proposals included something along these lines, IIRC.
Trouble is, the Germans like things the way they are; there are more of them than us.

With 3 (count them!) different sorts of licences, TMGs are certainly a challenge to understand.

Best advice, by far, comes from the BGA.

[kanga]

my lifetime BoT (pre-CAA) licence entitled (entitles ?) me to fly them on basis of my original 'Group A' GFT. I assume it was mentioned there because a BGA-ticketed (was it even called a 'licence' in those days ?) sailplane pilot who could in those days (IIRC) get a BGA-issued 'SLMG' endorsement ('rating' ?) was not entitled to fly a 'Group A' without a BoT-administered GFT (and, maybe, some exams) .. Or, it may be that it was to explain my privileges in other jurisdictions which made the distinction (eg, then, West Germany). Anyway, the privilege was carried forward onto my lifetime CAA PPL. As it happens, the only SLMGs I have flown have been military-registered ..

[my BoT licence also, implicitly, allowed me to fly SETs and SEJs as long as they were light enough .. ]

[Paul_Sengupta]

Perhaps it's taxying that's the issue - not hitting things.

Maybe a TMG rating would be good for airline pilots to have...there seem to have been quite a few incidents of wingips hitting other aeroplanes or buildings recently.

[Dave W]

As it happens, the only SLMGs I have flown have been military-registered ..

Ah, well, now - this discussion is complicated by the fact that the definition of an SLMG has changed, and many aircraft that used to be "SLMGs" in CAA days are now "TMGs" under EASA:

TMG
A specific class of powered sailplane having an integrally
mounted, non-retractable engine and a non-retractable propeller,
that is designed to be capable of taking off and climbing under its
own power according to its flight manual.

SLMG
An aircraft with the characteristics of a non-power-driven glider,
which is fitted with one or more power units and which is designed
or intended to take off under its own power. It differs from the
TMG in that the propeller(s)/engine(s) may be retractable.

[nickwilcock]

....and which is designed or intended to take off under its own power

That has always been rather amusing as it implies that sometimes they don't actually manage to take off under their own power!

There's yet another motorglider definition:

‘Powered sailplane’ means an aircraft equipped with one or more engines having, with engines inoperative, the characteristics of a sailplane.

[Hmmnnn]

For SEP you need an EASA Licence (certainly after April 2015) to fly EASA Aircraft,
but a National Licence will suffice for Annexe II Aircraft.

TMG is a complete category of aircraft. Does that mean all TMGs are EASA Aircraft
and hence an EASA Licence with TMG Rating is the only legal way to fly them?

[squawking 7700]

At the moment pretty well all TMG's are EASA aircraft, however, the Venture (not the Falke) has been or Marshalls would like to orphan it, it may be that the BGA will take it on - carbon wing spar life being the current talking point as it was originally lifed at 15 years.......

However, if that was sorted and it went on a BGA permit, values might increase!

7700

[Dave W]

Well, I've now completed my TMG Rating, with excellent training and examination from Oxfordshire Sport Flying and The Motor Glider Club respectively.

However, I estimate it cost nearly 3 times what it would have as Differences Training to achieve the same level of competence and I could be exercising the privileges now, rather than waiting for the return of my updated licence from Gatwick!

Edit: Which arrived yesterday (27 May), so that was 26 days after successfully completing the examination before I am able to exercise the expensively gained skill.

[172510]

You can still get an EASA licence to fly a TMG with a simple difference training:
1- Get a NPPL with SEA rating on the basis of your PPL
2- Undertake a difference training for SLMG rating (instructor sign off only, no skill test)
3- Have the SLMG rating added to your NPPL
4- Get an EASA SPL or LAPL(S) with TMG privileges on the basis of your NPPL(SLMG)
steps 3 and 1 can be done at the same time, once step 2 is completed.

[Paul_Sengupta]

I have SLMG on my old CAA licence as we all did of that era. Can I get anything on the basis of that?

Only flown an SLMG once...

[allout]

If the SLMG rating is valid: yes.
If not: no.

As mentioned elsewhere, Oxfordshire Sport Flying and The Motor Glider Club are super for renewing motor glider qualifications (other training organisations are available).

[Paul_Sengupta]

Rating? I can fly an SLMG with differences training, no? And also didn't need differences training back when I flew one.