Use this forum to flag up examples of red tape and gold plate
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By Flyin'Dutch'
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#1813117
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
johnm wrote:I can't understand the difficulty I must admit, it ought to be just the stroke of a pen to determine the privileges of a NPPL and a UK only LAPL surely?


You'd think so, but the issue is, I think, that they want to keep the licences aligned in hope of some sort of mutual agreement and acceptance. The UK say they'll accept EU licences but the EU haven't reciprocated.


The EU has a system which recognises EASA licences issued by non EU Members. Norway and Switzerland do so.
By johnm
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#1813120
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
johnm wrote:I can't understand the difficulty I must admit, it ought to be just the stroke of a pen to determine the privileges of a NPPL and a UK only LAPL surely?


You'd think so, but the issue is, I think, that they want to keep the licences aligned in hope of some sort of mutual agreement and acceptance. The UK say they'll accept EU licences but the EU haven't reciprocated.


The EU has a system which recognises EASA licences issued by non EU Members. Norway and Switzerland do so.


Indeed so because they are members of EASA, but not the EU.

The UK is a member of neither as from 1st Jan 2021 because it refuses to allow any role for ECJ. Others are rather more pragmatic, seeing the ECJ as an arbitrator and interpreter of agreed rules. There are many such bodies and the UK is signed up to quite a lot of them, but won't consider the ECJ in that context. Switzerland has some similar reservations and there was talk of a tailor made body for that relationship but I don't where, if anywhere, those discussions got to.
#1813387
johnm wrote:
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
johnm wrote:I can't understand the difficulty I must admit, it ought to be just the stroke of a pen to determine the privileges of a NPPL and a UK only LAPL surely?


You'd think so, but the issue is, I think, that they want to keep the licences aligned in hope of some sort of mutual agreement and acceptance. The UK say they'll accept EU licences but the EU haven't reciprocated.


For PPL holders it's automatic, so I assume this means that an EASA LAPL holder can fly in the UK. To reciprocate EASA would need more than 27 countries to agree a unique arrangement and it's not clear what incentive there might be in any of those countries to be blunt.



Then the CAA/DFT should tell EASA the EASA LAPL is in effect a national licence and as not ICAO, they aren't permitted into UK airspace
By johnm
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#1813390
I'd imagine that such infantile yah boo sucks would be very helpful in our future European relationships. :roll:
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By Paul_Sengupta
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#1813475
johnm wrote:I'd imagine that such infantile yah boo sucks would be very helpful in our future European relationships. :roll:


But that's effectively what the EU/EASA are doing.

...and not just in aviation. But that's straying into wider politics which isn't for this thread.
#1813504
Stop being ridiculous. The CAA have already said that they will recognise EASA licences in UK airspace for up to 2 years, if EASA cannot get their act together & recognise UK issued EASA compliant LAPLs then the CAA should reciprocate. In that event the childish "yah boo sucks" would be entirely on the EASA side.
By johnm
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#1813533
All joking apart unless there's significant pressure from LAPL holders in EASAland to secure their position after the 2 year window I suspect that EASA may simply not get round to it. I wonder how many EASA LAPL holders visit the UK......
#1814153
low&slow wrote:Stop being ridiculous. The CAA have already said that they will recognise EASA licences in UK airspace for up to 2 years, if EASA cannot get their act together & recognise UK issued EASA compliant LAPLs then the CAA should reciprocate. In that event the childish "yah boo sucks" would be entirely on the EASA side.


Yes but it won't be EASA who could make that decision, it would be the European Commission, who I doubt are particularly disposed towards doing so at the moment.

The CAA/DfT are taking a pragmatic view that I suspect largely slips under the radar of wider Government. Left to their own devices EASA would likely do the same since in isolation they bear no ill will towards the UK, but they don't have as much political leeway to make such decisions as the CAA does in the UK.
#1814594
Some interesting stuff here regarding the LAPL. Just published by the looks of things. Newsflash - the UK will not permit an LAPL issued by an EASA member state after 1 Jan 2021 to be used in UK airspace. Those issued by an EASA member state prior to 1 Jan 2021 can crack on.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... n_35000211

Spotted loads more info here too: https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... -aviation/


Snorker.
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By Irv Lee
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#1814605
Snorker wrote:Some interesting stuff here regarding the LAPL. Just published by the looks of things. Newsflash - the UK will not permit an LAPL issued by an EASA member state after 1 Jan 2021 to be used in UK airspace. Those issued by an EASA member state prior to 1 Jan 2021 can crack on.

https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... n_35000211

Spotted loads more info here too: https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... -aviation/


Snorker.

I looked at the first Q/A... and it;s either "OH DEAR" ..... or.... "HOORAY" (but I don't know which....)
"UK-Issued Private Pilots Licences"
"Would I be able to continue operating UK registered aircraft?"
Answer:
Yes, as a signatory state to the Chicago Convention, UK private pilot licences would continue to be legally valid for the operation of UK-registered aircraft. The CAA will continue to issue and reissue pilots' licences when they are lost, damaged, when details need to be changed or pilots' privileges updated as we do now. Over time, this would include removing references to EASA.

Is this saying that UK (national) CAA PPL can fly EASA/Reg21 aircraft, or is it badly worded?
#1814621
My understanding Irv is that if you are a UK CAA PPL holder (I got mine at the same time as getting the EASA one - advised by my FE at the time) then, yes, you can carry on flying what were previously G-reg EASA aircraft but what will become on the 1 Jan G-Reg Part 21 UK aircraft. If you are an NPPL holder (obvs very different to a full UK CAA PPL) then my understanding is that the decision actually rests with DfT whether NPPL holders will be able to fly Part 21 aircraft in January (they can't at the moment - since 8 April this year - but I believe there is some wiggle room to reverse that). It's all a voyage of discovery at the moment!!

Snorker
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By Paul_Sengupta
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#1814657
Irv Lee wrote:Is this saying that UK (national) CAA PPL can fly EASA/Reg21 aircraft, or is it badly worded?


The banning of UK licence holders flying G reg aeroplanes was always against the Chicago convention/ICAO/international law which the EU/EASA thought they could over-rule. When the EU becomes a single country with a single aircraft registry, then maybe they can stop "state" licences but apparently it isn't, yet.
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By Irv Lee
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#1814681
@Snorker Just to be clear, you're not suggesting that a UK (non EASA) PPL could fly an EASA aircraft right now, are you? UK PPLs were first reduced to the LAPL privileges in EASA aircraft including in the UK a few years ago, (2015?.. hard to remember now), and then the allowance to use them at all in EASA aircraft in the UK expired April 8th 2020.
There have been all sorts of communications about this over the years, Skyway code is quite clear about the situation up to April 8th 2020 and from April 8th, (pages* 15 and 17). I accept they OUGHT to be allowed to fly EASA/Reg21 aircraft to full privileges, and hopefully from 2300 on Dec 31st 2020, they will be allowed to again, but I would have thought 2ndary legislations would be needed if they have copied everything in bulk from the EASA regs. There are a few ways of skinning the NPPL-SSEA problem, I hope they choose the cheapest/easiest/quickest.
edit: * maybe it was pages 14 and 16
Last edited by Irv Lee on Wed Dec 16, 2020 10:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By johnm
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#1814685
The discussion about sub ICAO licence validity is about where you can fly as well as what you can fly. The EASA countries took the view that that some sub ICAO flying could be agreed and that’s why the LAPL was invented.

If you have PPL you can fly anywhere in a Reg 21 aeroplane

If you have a LAPL you could fly anywhere in EASA land

The issue is about NPPL and that is not and never has been useful outside the UK so the logic plays out that EASA Pilot licences go with EASA aeroplanes and if you don’t have an EASA licence you can’t fly an EASA aeroplane.

So Nppl Was restricted to UK nationally certified aircraft in the UK.

So now LAPL holders are also restricted to the UK but NPPL holders might get to fly a PA28, to be blunt that doesn’t look like a great trade off to me