Use this forum to flag up examples of red tape and gold plate
By NickA
#1527004
I've been trying to work this out from the new ANO and any other sources I can find but I'm afraid I'm still confused. My question is this: if I a co-own aircraft on an EASA permit to fly, can the group allow a non owner to fly the aircraft? This might be an instructor who we want to do checkouts for group members or it could be another pilot, perhaps a former member of the group, who would pay for fuel costs only?

I understand most of the new more relaxed rules on co-ownership but I'm not clear on whether, essentially, I could let someone not an owner fly the plane, and if so, under what conditions.

Any help appreciated.
#1527028
Good question - because I suspect that paying for some hourly marginal costs might be regarded as 'hire' on some interpretation. And a good point that insurance cover is a critical issue too. Does anyone have concrete examples of how this works for them?

So if I say to our tame instructor its fine to fly our aeroplane for the cost of fuel/oil or whatever - 40 pounds per hour, does that constitute hire? Or we allow that person to fly without a cash transfer but in informal exchange for instruction? Or engineering or accounting or whatever?

Apologies if this is obvious stuff to some but as someone who has never yet been part of the ownership world, there seems to be a multiplicity of ways in which one can fail to understand the regulation.
#1527068
NickA wrote:...
So if I say to our tame instructor its fine to fly our aeroplane for the cost of fuel/oil or whatever - 40 pounds per hour, does that constitute hire? Or we allow that person to fly without a cash transfer but in informal exchange for instruction? Or engineering or accounting or whatever?
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Sounds more like a bribe to me.

I like to pay the man (or Woman) for their time and keep their hands off my plane. (that reminds me I have to give her a call)
#1527242
I don't understand why you would want to let a non member fly your groups plane, certainly not for fuel costs only.

I wouldn't be happy with someone consuming engine and airframe hours, who wasn't contributing towards the cost of them.

If the non member wants to try the type, fly with a group member as P2.
Ex member wants to borrow it, nah, sorry mate you left!
#1547819
Hi I run a group for a Mooney. it consists of 5 pilots (equity owners). The insurance is very clear in that Equity owners can fly the aircraft and also Pilots who have more than 1000 hours SEP complex time.

We are also investigating the idea of having he odd person pay a set fee of £1500 for 10 hours of flying, which they would pay for in addition at the standard rate of £90 an hour. They also must have more than 500 SEP time. (that's for insurance.).

In answer to your question you only need to worry on whether your aircraft is in the Private or Public Category for maintenance etc. IF you are renting your aircraft out to your friendly instructor for him/her to have a jolly for the weekend, then that is Hire and Reward and therefore your aircraft needs to be in the Public Category. If however your friendly instructor is just training you while you are in the aircraft as an equity member then that is NOT hire and reward as YOU are "hiring" the plane and he is being hired for his time and services (ie has nothing to do with the aircraft) NOT hiring the plane and having you as a student, if that makes legal sense?
#1547885
Sooty25 wrote:I don't understand why you would want to let a non member fly your groups plane, certainly not for fuel costs only.
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I have let people fly my aeroplanes for the cost of the fuel and have benefited from the same myself. You do it for the same reason you'd do other things for your friends, such as give of your time. Friendship is not a commercial arrangement.

MM
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