Use this forum to flag up examples of red tape and gold plate
#1621405
Until recently it was possible to go NPPL(Microlight) to NPPL(SSEA) to PPL (SEP) and upwards if required.

As we stand today the NPPL(Microlight) or NPPL(SSEA) holder now has to do the whole PPL or LAPL course from scratch. There is no excemption.

Interestingly the FAA will except certain microlight hours towards a PPL and also towards a CPL.

It doesn't really make sense and on the grounds that such an upgrade path was allowed until April 2018 I can't see much safety case.

This change is also hitting the UK GA industry as people are going to America to upgrade their licence.
Instructor Errant, Spooky, Irv Lee and 1 others liked this
#1621735
:cry: Sadly this sums up the process thinking of the Authorities with regard this issue.

Typically - lets make it as complicated as possible ......... "for god sake don't promote GA Aviation"

Flying a 3 axis microlight isn't any different than the basic fundamentals of flying a heavier SLA or GA Light Aircraft is it ? The larger heavier types of GA airframe may have increased instrumentation and avionics and a few handling traits - but they can be learnt.

Why we can't be like the US and be sensible about upgrading licences (i.e UK NPPL(M) to LAPL/PPL) beggars belief. If it was okay all the way up to Mid 2018 why does it need to change anyway .... surely not more EASA bu....it . :evil:
Last edited by Ikarus on Sun Jul 01, 2018 12:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1622231
It would be a shame to prevent progression from NPPL(M) to other/higher licenses without the expense of starting again with a new license from scratch.

I'm guessing that many pilots, including those who are now professional pilots, started out with NPPL(M) as it provided a less expensive entry to flying.

It would be interesting to know if work or discussions are underway to explore how this might be solved.
#1622763
This issue has directly affected me as a microlight instructor. I've lost students, some quite a few hours into training, because they can no longer go this route.
As I understand it the NPPL(m) can be extended to an NPPL(ssea) but no further, and this restricts flying to non-easa aircraft.
#1622770
It would be interesting to know if work or discussions are underway to explore how this might be solved.


If the EC accepts Opinion 08/2017 with the revised terms of Article 4(7) proposed by EASA, you can rest assured that AOPA will be pressing the CAA to adopt this as a solution for you.

I have no idea as to the timescale though - the problem being that the amended EASA Basic Regulation has changed a number of previous paragraphs, so a comprehensive editorial review of various amendment proposals for the Aircrew Regulation is now needed.
#1623315
If the EC accepts Opinion 08/2017 with the revised terms of Article 4(7) proposed by EASA, you can rest assured that AOPA will be pressing the CAA to adopt this as a solution for you.

I have no idea as to the timescale though - the problem being that the amended EASA Basic Regulation has changed a number of previous paragraphs, so a comprehensive editorial review of various amendment proposals for the Aircrew Regulation is now needed.


Many thanks for this information and update, it's good to know that this is on the radar of folks that are in a position to raise issues such as these for the consideration of those that set policy.
#1677468
Hi - just to confirm, am I right in thinking that if I convert from the NPPL M to NPPL SSEA this year, I should be able to:

- Fly within the UK/IoM/Channel Islands/France (France - with some extra paperwork)
- Fly both microlights and SEPs
- Carry pax in both microlights and SEPs

I will not be able to:

- Transition to a LAPL or a similar licence
- Fly an SEP or a microlight anywhere outside the UK, Channel Islands, IoM and France
- (potentially) hire an airplane from a flying club after April - I know there's been a derogation, but it may end
- Do any add-on training, such as tailwheel, aerobatics (really interested in this one) or night (not interested), because NPPL SSEAs cannot carry additional ratings.

Does this sound right?

Thank you!
#1677504
agfoxx wrote:- Fly an SEP or a microlight anywhere outside the UK, Channel Islands, IoM and France


I believe there are microlight agreements which allow you to fly in some other countries as well, but this sector doesn't concern me, so someone else would have to state which ones!

agfoxx wrote:- (potentially) hire an airplane from a flying club after April - I know there's been a derogation, but it may end


I believe it's currently been extended for another year to 2020. There's a thread on here somewhere.

agfoxx wrote:- Do any add-on training, such as tailwheel, aerobatics (really interested in this one) or night (not interested), because NPPL SSEAs cannot carry additional ratings.


Tailwheel isn't a rating, it's differences training. Also for a UK licence flying a UK non-EASA aeroplane, you don't need an aerobatics rating to fly aerobatics.
Irv Lee liked this
#1678734
Ikarus wrote::cry: Sadly this sums up the process thinking of the Authorities with regard this issue.

Typically - lets make it as complicated as possible ......... "for god sake don't promote GA Aviation"

Flying a 3 axis microlight isn't any different than the basic fundamentals of flying a heavier SLA or GA Light Aircraft is it ? The larger heavier types of GA airframe may have increased instrumentation and avionics and a few handling traits - but they can be learnt.

Why we can't be like the US and be sensible about upgrading licences (i.e UK NPPL(M) to LAPL/PPL) beggars belief. If it was okay all the way up to Mid 2018 why does it need to change anyway .... surely not more EASA bu....it . :evil:

Regretfully some people at the CAA don't seem to realise that 'microlight' doesn't mean 'weightshift' and there are many 3-axis types which are identical to 'ordinary' aircraft.
#1678761
^^^^^^^ Is that not the nub of the "problem" they probably see?
AIUI, weightshift and 3-axis are totally different things, I've personally seen a good few of each type....to generalise, most 3-axis are indistinguishable in panel and controls, from Permit and Certified types.

Weightshift seem to vary wildly on instrumentation and layout. Their control-system is also fundamentally different. The main control being by a bar.....pull to go down, push to go up......now try that with a 3-axis :shock:

The resolution "could" be that the BMAA administers only Flexwings, the LAA sticks to all 3-axis machines. OR , (given that , for several reasons, that won't happen,) the licencing is simplified.

Flexwing or fixed-wing.......As this would almost double the qualifying training-time of the current 3-axis M/light entourage, I can't see that being a popular choice.....which leaves us with the present kludge of a system.

As Nanolights haven't been banned or regulated out of existence, nor have powered parachutes, maybe all flexwings should be re- categorised as a simpler "aircraft" and a conversion path established for 3-axis Micro to Gp. A.

Just random thoughts from an "outsider" feel free to throw rocks and insults :D
#1678783
cockney steve wrote:^^^^^^^ Is that not the nub of the "problem" they probably see?

No. The nub of the issue is that licencing to fly an EASA SEP is controlled by EASA, & they currently are not interested in allowing a microlight to SEP route where microlight hours count for something.

It has nothing to do with which organisation certifies which microlights, you must have an EASA licence to fly an EASA SEP. The only way to change that is to change EASA legislation or leave EASA.

I think you can still go from NPPL microlight to NPPL SSEA if you own a share & train in a non EASA SEP, eg a homebuilt. There's an even more convoluted route from NPPL microlight to NPPL SLMG to EASA LAPL(A) with TMG privileges to which you can train to add SEP privileges but it might just be easier to do an LAPL(A) course.
#1679054
I'm actually hoping to bother, Cockney Steve. I'd be quite keen to be able to fly both microlights and SEP - I have a keen interest in vintage/taildragger/weird types. I have no plans to fly at night, or in IFR, so this route would work for me. And who knows what happens in the future, - perhaps some form of SEP to LAPL route will be brought back.
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#1682439
cockney steve wrote:Thanks for that, L&S.....that seems like a lot of hassle for very little return. I expect very few people bother. :(


I had planned to go NPPL to LAPL to PPL then eventually commercial. Circumstances prevented me doing it in time to meet the plucked out of thin air deadline.

Kind of glad though. It allowed me more money to enjoy flying, and I realised it’d be a struggle to get a commercial job anyway in the current climate.