Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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User avatar
By ConcordeBA
#1214256
I've seen information to go to an EASA LAPL but I wan't to get a EASA PPL. Where does it state the things I need to do in order to apply for this license. I have some 83 hours now and I am going to get my Class 2 Medical in November. It's all booked!

Is it just a Paperwork change? Cheers!
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1214262
It's paperwork and money NPPL-SSEA to EASA LAPL, but upgrade training/test/paperwork/money for EASA LAPL to EASA PPL. This is what EASA FCL says for the upgrade of LAPL(A) to PPL(A):
"Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a
PPL(A) holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight
time on aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL(A), of which at least 10 shall
be flight instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training
course shall include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including
at least 2 hours of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country
flight of at least 270 km (150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2
aerodromes different from the aerodrome of departure shall be made"

I think I have an email somewhere saying that you can go NPPL-SSEA to EASA-PPL(A) without getting the LAPL actually issued as an intermediate document, but of course that presumably would mean doing 15 hours training with the ATO not the minumum 10. Better check that has not been over-ruled since.
User avatar
By ConcordeBA
#1214345
Irv,

Why would I need to do 15 hours of the same stuff I've already done with the ATO; along with all the solo stuff that I've already done, passed and completed? I've done 83 hours on my license, why would I need to repeat the process to get a paperwork change?
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1214387
Why would I need to do 15 hours of the same stuff I've already done with the ATO; along with all the solo stuff that I've already done, passed and completed? I've done 83 hours on my license, why would I need to repeat the process to get a paperwork change?


You won't. All you have to do is to hold at least a Part-MED Class 2 Medical Certificate and meet both the NPPL-to-LAPL and LAPL-to-PPL criteria (which can of course be achieved simultaneously), but you won't need to hold a LAPL physically.

In Feb 2013 I was advised by the CAA that this would be clarified in the CAP 804 amendment due to be published in July 2013. We are still waiting for this some 3 months later.......
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1214402
No you won't have to do 15 hours of the same stuff - the quote I gave says 15 hours post licence issue (of LAPL) to get PPL of which minimum 10 is with the ATO. SO if you had a LAPL, you would fly around looking for bacon sandwiches for 5 hours, then present yourself for hopefully a 10 hour course at an ATO to get a PPL. However, If you don't actually get a LAPL licence issued but present them in one package with money and paperwork for a LAPL issue plus money and paperwork for a PPL after a course which is supposed to start with holding a LAPL, I'm just wondering out loud if they will decide that you got a virtual LAPL the moment you started your LAPL-PPL course, and therefore, you need 15 hours from that point before they will issue the PPL. (Ie: 10 hours they specify, plus another 5 hours). Otherwise, how will they interpret the bit about 15 hours post LAPL issue?
By Adam_R
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1214683
Robbie,

I am currently going through this and have had a lot of correspondence with the CAA, so am quite clued up on this farce.

Irv, you are right, the CAA will incorporate an NPPL to EASA PPL section in the next CAP804. I have a draft copy of it. Currently, if you go for NPPL to EASA PPL you have to fulfill both requirements for NPPL to LAPL and LAPL to PPL in CAP 804, but the CAA will process the license as a direct NPPL to EASA PPL, and not charge a LAPL fee.

Robbie, of the 83 hours you have done so far, only 5 can be used towards the 15 hours NPPL to PPL requirement. You MUST do 10 hours training at an RTF/ATO, and create a “Training Package” (quoting a CAA licensing Officer), that is tailored to you, based on your previous flying experience.

Of those 10 hours aforementioned, as per CAP 804, you must do
4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours
of solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least
270 km (150 NM)


Furthermore, you must have evidence of every exercise of the PPL syllabus in your logbook; look here (starts on page 178): http://easa.europa.eu/agency-measures/docs/agency-decisions/2011/2011-016-R/AMC%20and%20GM%20to%20Part-FCL.pdf

Assuming you are a normal NPPL holder, you will need to fly a couple of dual hours for the exercises omitted from the full PPL syllabus, like radio nav / instrument flying appreciation. Once they have been completed, and you have flown the 4 hours supervised solo, including the 2 hours of solo cross country and 150NM cross country, the remaining time can be whatever your instructor decides; be it more dual or more supervised solo! So, the majority of the "training" may turn out to be supervised solo if you are already up to the required standard. There is no upper limit to the amount of supervised solo, just a lower limit (4 hours). In my case, it means I must do 6 hours "Supervised Solo" as "Training" :|

The flying club I spoke to about the conversion even said I would have to pay the dual rate for the supervised solo because it will be essentially flying under their supervision, despite having a current license! The process is ridiculous and, no, I don't understand how you can be "supervised" when you already hold an appropriate license either :lol:

You can credit any dual flying you have done so far towards meeting the syllabus criteria but you cannot count the actual hours towards the 10 hours training; unless they are flown for the purpose of the 10 hour “training package”. For example, and again in my case, the CAA will accept I meet the syllabus criteria for spinning, slow flight etc as I completed an AOPA aerobatic course but will not let me log those hours towards the 10 because it was not a recognised PPL training course; despite being done at an FTO, with a PPL instructor!.

Also, if you already completed a 150NM cross country when doing the NPPL, in preparation for a future upgrade,forget about it. You MUST redo another 150NM cross country, they will not accept previous ones unless they have been done at an FTO for the purpose of the NPPL to PPL. I know of a guy who had his NPPL to PPL application sent back, despite meeting all the other requirements, because he tried to use his previous 150NM XC he did during NPPL training for a future NPPL to PPL!

Once you have the 10 hours "training" package completed, complete a skills test and send off the application.. simple, right? :? :thumleft:

I have spent months trying to get the CAA give me some leniency on this and accredit some of my previous flying but they won’t budge on this. It’s a dreadful, ambiguous and (purposefully?) expensive process; but it’s the ONLY way!
By Bathman
#1214712
I feel your pain.

I’ve recently done two NPPL to PPL and to be honest the whole lot is a bit of a joke.

Both pilots had there own aircraft and one of them had over 800 hours. He had made numerous trips to the continent and we are talking like 20 here. Yet he had to do a QXC.

The 2nd chap (and I am still waiting with bated breath to see if he actually gets his PPL) had a couple of hundred and ours and like yourself had done an AOPA aerobatic course and like yourself the CAA wouldn’t except it. (I did tell him to join AOPA and phone them up and fight for his case but he didn’t) . Anyway he did a night rating as part of his 10 hours.

What would happen if someone was thinking of going commercial and did a 300 nm qxc. Which would be valid for CPL issue but not for an NPPL to PPL conversion.

Madness and stinks come to mind.
User avatar
By ConcordeBA
#1215785
Hello,

I have to say that this completely stinks, and wasn't expecting that but I will do a Night Rating as I am not color blind and I guess I could also start a Instrument Rating/IMC?

Does the UK IMC still exist? I haven't looked into it as of late. I am pretty sure the CAA above will allow me do that, and apply for a PPL/Night Rating simultaneously. I also need to do another QXC? how odd! I don't mind but I currently fly cross country all the time haha!!

Cheers for the replies.
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1216717
The latest version of CAP 804 was released yesterday; in addition to MUCH better page referencing, some 97-ish pages have been amended (not counting the LoEP and abbreviations).

NPPL to PPL conversion is now included; however, it merely formalises what we already know. It refers to the LAPL to PPL conversion requirements of Part-FCL, which are actually stated in the PPL section, rather than providing you with a clue as to their location in CAP 804......
User avatar
By ConcordeBA
#1218533
Hello Nick,

I take it means I have to do the following as mentioned above.

FCL.210.A PPL(A)

(b) Specific requirements for applicants holding an LAPL(A). Applicants for a PPL (A)
holding an LAPL(A) shall have completed at least 15 hours of flight time on
aeroplanes after the issue of the LAPL (A), of which at least 10 shall be flight
instruction completed in a training course at an ATO. This training course shall
include at least 4 hours of supervised solo flight time, including at least 2 hours of
solo cross-country flight time with at least 1 cross-country flight of at least 270 km
(150 NM), during which full stop landings at 2 aerodromes different from the
aerodrome of departure shall be made.

If I get my Class 2, of which I hope to do so I take it can do a Night Rating and an IR(Restricted Rating) and apply together. I take it the best bet would be to write to the CAA licensing on issue of my Class 2 to see what they will accept?
User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1218609
I don't see any reason why you shouldn't complete the NPPL-to-PPL conversion as described in CAP 804, then the Night Rating, then apply for conversion to PPL(A) with SEP Class Rating, Night Rating provided that you take the PPL Skill Test within 6 months of completing the conversion training.

Assuming that continuance of new IR(R) issue beyond Apr 2014 is confirmed, you will need to complete the flying training / experience requirements for the IR(R) as detailed in CAP804 Part I Section 5 Part E para 3.1; to me these suggest that the PIC time you have already achieved with your NPPL should be credited. But the experience requirements specify 25 hours 'since PPL issue' (which can include the IR(R) course), so you will need to have achieved that before applying for the IR(R)...

Unusual to do all that training in one go, though - but I can't see why not. It might be worth working out your precise game plan, then contacting fclweb@caa.co.uk for confirmation before you go too far though.
User avatar
By ConcordeBA
#1244628
This sounds like fun.

I did send the CAA an email end of November, no response yet. Rung them up last week, apparently they've responded within 3-4 working days currently.. I must be unlucky then, they told me to re-send the email so if I don't receive a response by mid-week I'll call them up again to speak to someone directly.

Probably going to have to do the night rating next winter along with my IR(R).