Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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#1899143
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
flyingearly wrote:Is there any avenue through which to register my frustration with the CAA


The Flyer Forum? :D


This is, of course, the best place to do such a thing. I'll combine it with banging my head against a brick wall, using my chocolate teapot, farting in my spacesuit and any other relevant expression I can think of!
#1899149
@flyingearly in all seriousness you could drop a message to ga@caa.co.uk and ask that the NPPL to UK PPL route should be re-established. They will probably tell you to respond to the consultation on flight crew licensing when it comes out, but at least you will have registered the issue.

For reference I've just looked in LASORS 2010 and the requirements NPPL/SSEA to JAR PPL were 20 hours instruction with a JAR qualified instructor (to include those elements not on the SSEA syllabus) and 10 hours solo (to meet the various solo reqs of the PPL issue) + take the PPL exams. I think time from the SSEA training could count, provided all the requirements of the PPL were covered.

Not suggesting that should be the route today, but that is what the requirement was before EASA came in.
#1899192
JAFO wrote:@flyingearly - if you wanted to fly Part 21 light aircraft at night/in cloud/overseas, why did you get a microlight NPPL?

Not a dig, just a question.


Perfectly legitimate question - and a few answers in response.

At the time, I didn't really appreciate the difference between NPPL and PPL fully, if I'm completely honest. It sounds so amateurish in hindsight. When I started lessons (2016) I naively thought I would be done by April 2018 and so - at that time - my thinking was 'do the NPPL, see how you get on then you can always 'upgrade' over time, with the advantage that you should have a licence sooner'.

In fact, I think there's a post from me on these forums back then - under an older username - where I said that I've screwed up and didn't realise the difference. Ominously, I now realised in my 2016 post that I specifically call out worries about not being able to do an IR if I make the wrong choice!

At the time, I didn't really know what sort of flying I wanted to do. It's only now, post-licence, with a share in a microlight, that I realise the limitations of my licence and the potential that additional ratings would offer me.

Also, at the time, cost was a huge factor. I learnt on a C42 at £159 an hour (still relatively expensive, saying that) vs £220+ for a C152 locally and got my licence in 40 hours, vs what would have been many more had I gone down the PPL route.

Also, the key bit here, is that once I realised that I wasn't going to get my licence before 2018, never in a million years did I envisage what a bureaucratic mess this would all turn into and that 4 years later the pathway from NPPL >> PPL would not have been resolved.

I'm in the midst of clearing diaries to try and do my SSEA upgrade in the next couple of months; I think I can at least do that and a Night Rating and then see where things are by the end of the year.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899270
Skywise today, relating to paper forms:
From 15th April 2022, SRG1105A and SRG1105H will only be accepted when applying for a national PPL(A) or PPL (H) under the ANO.

However, means nothing in itself regarding nppl to ppl. National ppl is required for a type rated non part 21.
@Edward Bellamy If all that is holding back nppl to ppl is 'policy' despite many pushes, (eg @Bathman and from me), then MP is the route, not yet another caa push
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#1899992
Just a quick follow-up on this as I have had some incredibly helpful - albeit a bit mind-stretching - PMs from people who have suggested some potential long-winded back-door routes.

Does anyone happen to know whether hours in a UK microlight are creditable towards a FAA PPL (not looking at piggyback here, just whether I could legitimately take my PPL in the States and how many hours I could carry over - if the answer is none then it's a non-starter)? I understood that the FAA definition for credits was simply 'aircraft'. If it's of relevance, I trained on the C42 which can be flown Group A (but obviously isn't 99%).
#1900070
Foreign instruction is normally OK by the FAA towards the required totals for licence issue.

The only question is whether they’d accept training hours from an instructor who (presumably if they were just a microlight FI) did not hold an ICAO instructor rating. I don’t know if there is much case experience on that?

In reality you might be able to gloss over the instructor thing, particularly since re the C42…just tell them it’s an LSA airplane and they’ll understand. As long as the practical and written tests are passed they may not question it too closely.

Instruction given by an FI towards SSEA should be fine.

If you get an FAA PPL, a bit of hour building on a non-Part-21 aircraft (to avoid the Part-FCL requirement for UK residents) to reach 100 hours SEP and you could then go to PPL relatively easily. Or if you had already got the SSEA, you don’t have to worry about the non-Part 21 bit.

Then go for PPL test as a third country PPL to Part-FCL conversion. You’d also have to do Air Law and Human Performance written exams.

Probably depends how quickly you want to get a full PPL, if you are pretty keen and fancy a trip to the US then it’s not a bad option, but if it’s something for a year or two’s time I’d hope the UK rules would be back in your favour by then anyway…
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1900110
Which makes FCL such a mockery in this area. Pre fcl, all dealt with by assessment, required training, how many ground exams to do, and then full initial skill test where ever your starting point was or how current your paperwork, or how many hours. Strikes me today's nonsense is a reflection on the validity of fcl itself, and the lazy inadequates who designed it
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#1900124
I can’t help with respect to a PPL but I know one chap who luckily had added an SSEA rating to his NPPL(microlight) before April 2018 so he was able to upgrade to an PPL.

Unfortunately the CAA wouldn't recognise his 700 odd hours in his eurostar (it didn’t have a fuel pump) towards a CPL but the FAA would. He now works commercially on his FAA ticket and is in the process of using all the hours obtained using his FAA CPL to meet the UK CPL requirements.

I really can’t understand why nothing has been done to allow post April 2018 NPPL holders to upgrade to a PPL. I am certain there is a ready stream of customers for the flying schools and I’ve lost count of the number of potential customers have walked away from microlight schools as there is not upgrade path available at a later date.

There can’t be a safety case and I can only conclude that the regulator just doesn’t don’t understand the financial impact of this missive and AOPA doesn’t have a clue either or the regulator just don’t listen to them. Either way it needs fixing and sooner the better.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1900139
One bit i cannot "get" is that 14 months after being able to easily take the main toxicity out of this side of things simply by restoring the ssea-lapl bridge, (still there for some) a fully fledged active pa28 driver on a non icao licence (nppl ssea) and restricted to the uk generally still has to do a full ab initio lapl course to get a non icao lapl, a licence restricted to the UK that was invented from the nppl ssea experience, and looking wider, a capable icao ppl pilot with lower hours or expired rating has no route to EVEN a lapl without a full course, never mind getting a ppl.
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#1900164
Irv Lee wrote:One bit i cannot "get" is that 14 months after being able to easily take the main toxicity out of this side of things simply by restoring the ssea-lapl bridge, (still there for some) a fully fledged active pa28 driver on a non icao licence (nppl ssea) and restricted to the uk generally still has to do a full ab initio lapl course to get a non icao lapl, a licence restricted to the UK that was invented from the nppl ssea experience, and looking wider, a capable icao ppl pilot with lower hours or expired rating has no route to EVEN a lapl without a full course, never mind getting a ppl.


Irv,
I also find it strange how for night rating you have to do the basic instrument daytime flying if holding an LAPL. The SSEA has this basic instrument training included in the syllabus, so surely the nppl ssea has exceeded the LAPL syllabus?
B1
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