Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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By B1engineer
#1882834
So I was looking at further developing my skills to include a night rating. I thought that a VFR night rating was possible on NPPL SSEA rating. But a Google search for training seems to indicate it is not possible.

I had previously understood if on PMD then a colour blindness test was required. Also PPL basic instrument training prior to commencing the night rating. However as above several schools in the search said this was not possible.
If anyone could shine some light on it (pardon the pun) I would be grateful.
B1
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By flyingearly
#1882845
Well, I never knew that...this is fantastic and gives me a good project to get stuck into over winter (I have no specific desire to fly at night, but having a night rating will presumably lessen the rush to be on the ground for sunset + 30).

Quick question though: what is the minimum equipment required for night flight? E.g. if I could find someone to do the training, can I do it in my own microlight (which has attitude indicator, turn indicator + the usual)?
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By flyingearly
#1882859
Bathman wrote:You can't do it in a Microlight. They are VFR day only.


I'm sure you're absolutely right, but what is the authority for this?

I understood a Night Rating to be a rating on my licence, not the aircraft. I hold an NPPL(A) (with microlight privelidges) and - based on the CAA reading - I can definitely add a night rating to that.

I've looked at CAA site, NPPL website, BMAA and LAA websites and can't see any reference whatsoever to microlights being 'day only'; only 'VFR only'. If I'm clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (at night), I'm compliant?

As I said, I'm sure you're right - but I can't find any source confirming that I can't fly a microlight VFR at night.
By A4 Pacific
#1882864
Happy to be corrected, however I believe VFR is not permitted at night in the UK. There’s no such thing. Because you can’t always see whether you are complying with the rules for VFR.

Special VFR is different.
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By Andrew Sinclair
#1882865
A4 Pacific wrote:Happy to be corrected, however I believe VFR is not permitted at night in the UK. There’s no such thing. Because you can’t always see whether you are complying with the rules for VFR.

Special VFR is different.


That used to be the case either Special or IFR but it changed and you can fly under VFR at night these days :thumright:

It changed in 2012
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair on Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By FlightDek
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882866
flyingearly wrote:I'm sure you're absolutely right, but what is the authority for this?

I understood a Night Rating to be a rating on my licence, not the aircraft. I hold an NPPL(A) (with microlight privelidges) and - based on the CAA reading - I can definitely add a night rating to that.

I've looked at CAA site, NPPL website, BMAA and LAA websites and can't see any reference whatsoever to microlights being 'day only'; only 'VFR only'. If I'm clear of cloud and in sight of the surface (at night), I'm compliant?

As I said, I'm sure you're right - but I can't find any source confirming that I can't fly a microlight VFR at night.


From the ANO
Limitations of national permits to fly
42.—(1) An aircraft flying in accordance with a national permit to fly—

(a)must not fly for the purpose of public transport or commercial air transport; and
(b)must not fly without the permission of the CAA—
(i)for commercial operation;
(ii)at night or in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules; or
(iii)for hire.


You can fly a microlight at night but it needs a specific approval
By A4 Pacific
#1882867
Andrew Sinclair wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:Happy to be corrected, however I believe VFR is not permitted at night in the UK. There’s no such thing. Because you can’t always see whether you are complying with the rules for VFR.

Special VFR is different.


That used to be the case either Special or IFR but it changed and you can fly under VFR at night these days :thumright:

It changed in 2012


Fair enough. I’ve had a full instrument rating since the mid 80s so I’m not particularly up to speed on that corner of the legislation.

How can you tell if you are complying with the rules for VFR flight? (Not that I would ever wish to fly a piston single at night!)
Last edited by A4 Pacific on Mon Nov 15, 2021 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Andrew Sinclair
#1882868
Same way as you do during the day. Not at easy mind you, needs more thorough pre-flight weather planning and monitoring as well.

I conduct quite a bit of night rating instruction and the very question you pose, the right question, always causes an interesting debate. I always try to conduct some of the cross country element of the course in marginal conditions to illustrate the complex task of staying in VMC on a cloudy night.

Themz the roolz though.

PS - agree with piston singles at night comment, gives me the willies. Much prefer more than one donkey or a turbine.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882870
on the licensing side, our ANO says night rating is possible for nppl slmg and nppl ssea. See ANO nppl privileges and conditions, para 1 (f) says slmg and ssea can fly at night with night rating (aeroplanes).
Obviously the aircraft has to be night-capable too
By B1engineer
#1882876
Thanks all for the confirmation. There are a few schools saying on website it's not possible for nppl, however you've all confirmed possible and I had seen caa info on the pre requisites of colour blindness test and ppl basic instruments training. :thumleft:
Just to find a school in the south that can do for me. My club does not hold ATO/DTO approval.

Thanks again
B1
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By flyingearly
#1882878
A4 Pacific wrote:How can you tell if you are complying with the rules for VFR flight? (Not that I would ever wish to fly a piston single at night!)


I'm with you on that, although don't forget there is a big difference between night and 'night'; in the summer, there is often a good full hour after Sunset+30 before it gets genuinely dark*. So, to answer your question: I'd look out the window!

Having a night rating has the potential to improve safety margins by avoiding the pressure to be on the ground by a deadline, knowing that if I'm 10 minutes late landing it's not a biggie. And - on some occasions - I imagine it will be very beautiful and worth a local flight in itself in the midst of twilight.

*I didn't actually realise until I posted this that - other than civil twilight - there are also measurements for nautical twilight (when navigation via the horizon at sea is no longer possible) and astronomical twilight (when it gets properly dark).

On 21st June in London, civil twilight begins 21:23, nautical twilight begins 22:09 and astronomical twilight begins 23:23.
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By flyingearly
#1882880
Irv Lee wrote:on the licensing side, our ANO says night rating is possible for nppl slmg and nppl ssea. See ANO nppl privileges and conditions, para 1 (f) says slmg and ssea can fly at night with night rating (aeroplanes).
Obviously the aircraft has to be night-capable too


So I dug into the ANO on this:

Limitations of national permits to fly
42.—(1) An aircraft flying in accordance with a national permit to fly—

(a)must not fly for the purpose of public transport or commercial air transport; and
(b)must not fly without the permission of the CAA—
(i)for commercial operation other than commercial operation which consists of an aircraft flying for the
purpose of a flying display, associated practice for a flying display, test and positioning flights or the
exhibition or demonstration of the aircraft;]
(ii)at night or in accordance with Instrument Flight Rules; or
(iii)for hire.

I can't see where non-SSEA are excluded? Am I missing it, or are they not?

...so, how do you get 'the permission of the CAA'. Is there a form to submit?