Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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By flyingearly
#1882884
flyingearly wrote:Quick question though: what is the minimum equipment required for night flight? E.g. if I could find someone to do the training, can I do it in my own microlight (which has attitude indicator, turn indicator + the usual)?


And to answer my own question on minimum equipment from the ANO:

(2) Aeroplanes operated under visual meteorological conditions at night must, in addition to the requirements of sub-paragraph (1), be equipped with—

(a)an anti-collision light system;
(b)navigation/position lights;
(c)a landing light;
(d)lighting supplied from the aeroplane's electrical system to provide adequate illumination for all instruments and equipment essential to the safe operation of the flying machine; and
(e)an independent portable light for each crew member.

and separately:

Flying machines operated at night must be equipped with—

(a)a means of measuring and displaying—
(i)turn and slip; or
(ii)attitude and stabilised heading; and
(b)where gyroscopic instruments are installed, a means of indicating when the supply of power to those instruments is not adequate.
By A4 Pacific
#1882896
The issue of remaining VFR during night flying does remind me of this from the AAIB report into the Sala accident and it’s causal factors:

The pilot lost control of the aircraft during a manually-flown turn, which was probably initiated to remain in or regain Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC).


As far as the three twilights are concerned, I’ve been familiar with those, since the 80s when much of my flying was low level at night on NVG. All I would say is those various twilights are defined by the position of the sun in relation to the horizon. But importantly, that declination is measured from the surface, not from flying altitude. So yes you can be floating around fat dumb and happy with a sense of ‘light’, certainly in civil twighlight and even in to nautical twilight, but don’t forget the definition of nautical twilight ‘at the surface’ is defined as “ In clear weather conditions, the horizon is faintly visible during this twilight phase. Many of the brighter stars can also be seen, making it possible to use the position of the stars in relation to the horizon to navigate at sea.” This is why it is called nautical twilight. So you aren’t going to see much out of the window as you are descending or approaching to land, or forced land.

I’m afraid I don’t get this bit at all:

Having a night rating has the potential to improve safety margins by avoiding the pressure to be on the ground by a deadline,


It doesn’t improve safety at all. If you don’t have a night rating, plan to be on the ground at sunset, and you’ve given yourself a 30 minute buffer. Where’s the “pressure”?

In fact if I read your post correctly:

in the summer, there is often a good full hour after Sunset+30 before it gets genuinely dark


You seem to have an hour and a half after sunset as a buffer! :shock: Where you get that from I have no idea. Though I do accept in the summer at some latitudes (including the UK) you will not see worse than one of the twilights, never entering ‘night’. Whilst at others the sun will never actually even set!
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By flyingearly
#1882900
A4 Pacific wrote:The issue of remaining VFR during night flying does remind me of this from the AAIB report into the Sala accident and it’s causal factors:

The pilot lost control of the aircraft during a manually-flown turn, which was probably initiated to remain in or regain Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC).


As far as the three twilights are concerned, I’ve been familiar with those, since the 80s when much of my flying was low level at night on NVG. All I would say is those various twilights are defined by the position of the sun in relation to the horizon. But importantly, that declination is measured from the surface, not from flying altitude. So yes you can be floating around fat dumb and happy with a sense of ‘light’, certainly in civil twighlight and even in to nautical twilight, but don’t forget the definition of nautical twilight ‘at the surface’ is defined as “ In clear weather conditions, the horizon is faintly visible during this twilight phase. Many of the brighter stars can also be seen, making it possible to use the position of the stars in relation to the horizon to navigate at sea.” This is why it is called nautical twilight. So you aren’t going to see much out of the window as you are descending or approaching to land, or forced land.

I’m afraid I don’t get this bit at all:

Having a night rating has the potential to improve safety margins by avoiding the pressure to be on the ground by a deadline,


It doesn’t improve safety at all. If you don’t have a night rating, plan to be on the ground at sunset, and you’ve given yourself a 30 minute buffer. Where’s the “pressure”?

In fact if I read your post correctly:

in the summer, there is often a good full hour after Sunset+30 before it gets genuinely dark


You seem to have an hour and a half after sunset as a buffer! :shock: Though where you get that from I have no idea. Though I do accept in the summer at some latitudes you will not see worse than one of the twilights, whilst at others the sun may never set!


Great questions, happy to answer.

The 'pressure' I refer to comes in a few different scenarios.

At a previous school that I hired from, they wanted all aircraft back on the ground by sunset (not sunset + 30) and I had heard of one renter being blasted by the owner for landing 2 minutes late (even though it was perfectly legal).

If - for some reason - I found myself in the situation where I was approaching to land quite close to the sunset + 30 cutoff, or if I was in the renter's position above - I think that knowing I'm perfectly legal to go-around if I needed to would take away any pressure to commit to a landing I wasn't happy with.

I get the point that you can avoid that situation by building your own buffer in, but I find this 'contingency upon contingency' argument difficult; what's wrong with having a night rating as contingency? And - as we all know - sometimes things go wrong and you do find yourself up against time, even if you've planned well.

Being able to fly up to sunset + 30 makes a big difference to my availability to fly after in the summer months; not only is it the difference as to whether I can actual fly at all (in time), but it affects how 'rushed' I would be in that flying window. Notwithstanding that if I land sunset + 29 I'm not even exercising the privelidges of a night rating anyway!

The point I'm making is that the night rating is in itself a contingency for people like me who otherwise plan to land 30 before civil twilight, which - on 21st June - might genuinely be a good full hour or so ahead of the time when conditions are genuinely 'too dark to land by eyesight'. I'm not suggesting that this automatically means people push their luck and plan to stay out that late (although by licence, they are legal to do so); rather, a night rating could be viewed in the same way as an IR(R) rating is - you probably won't use it, but it's useful training, fun to do and gives you options when things go wrong.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882946
flyingearly wrote:At a previous school that I hired from, they wanted all aircraft back on the ground by sunset (not sunset + 30) and I had heard of one renter being blasted by the owner for landing 2 minutes late (even though it was perfectly legal).


Having a night rating isn't going to help in that scenario! Nor if the aerodrome closes at SS or some time before.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883125
This is landingjust before night. Runway 26 had good breeze from 170 all day, nice sunny day, aircraft returns from a long way east just before night, obviously no time to check the windsock, and radio closed.... and as might be suspected from Met studies, the wind had backed about 40 degrees as the Sun went down. Mind you the hedge at the end of the runway did a good job of preserving life, if not wings.
Image
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By Fellsteruk
#1883202
Maybe I have a disregard for life but I don’t share the fear of night flying in a single. Sure if I have a failure it’s gonna be harder to know I’ve got a good landing spot and that may result in death but I don’t drive on the motorway every day worrying a lorry will take me out.

I find night flying more challenging but defo more exciting, I never really got my rating to fly at night was more not to worry about sunset +30 if coming back home from somewhere but now it’s winter , without a night rating I’d never fly in the week and with weekends being packed with students on lessons makes them tricky also.

I can be at the airfield after work for 3:30ish and have the aircraft checked and ready to go before sunset with most students doing PPl or LAPL no issues with availability and I come back when I want, it’s great!

Another place though I’m hiring from all flights on the deck before 4:30pm as this is when the office closes which is naff but they have better weekend availability.

On the maintaining VMC, agree it’s tricky and I tend to stay lower than I would normally if I’m expecting cloud a few hundred feet above me obvs if I’m expecting low cloud I stay at home with coffee and cake. if your gonna go into a cloud, nothing a calm 180 won’t fix. Just don’t panic easy said than done but if you brief yourself before hand what you’ll do if I hit cloud it should help with shock factor, works for me.

I was transiting overhead Liverpool last week at night around 1,300 not seen a single cloud coming back from up north then just as overhead I hit the white stuff, could still see the runway below and just make out Chester so gave it a sec and thankfully was out in no time. At night the first u know is when you hit it for the most part.

How can u not love it…..
https://ibb.co/C6kh1BW
https://ibb.co/qJbZL7R
Last edited by Fellsteruk on Wed Nov 17, 2021 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Fellsteruk
#1883203
Irv Lee wrote:This is landingjust before night. Runway 26 had good breeze from 170 all day, nice sunny day, aircraft returns from a long way east just before night, obviously no time to check the windsock, and radio closed.... and as might be suspected from Met studies, the wind had backed about 40 degrees as the Sun went down. Mind you the hedge at the end of the runway did a good job of preserving life, if not wings.
Image


Poor thing ;( hopefully everyone was ok.
By A4 Pacific
#1883207
I was transiting overhead Liverpool last week at night around 1,300 not seen a single cloud coming back from up north then just as overhead I hit the white stuff, could still see the runway below and just make out Chester so gave it a sec and thankfully was out in no time. At night the first u know is when you hit it for the most part.


I truly hope your good luck continues. :thumright:
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883244
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:This is landing just before night.


I'd say a good 40% of my landings are just before night...


Yes, but...

Where many fly-out for lunch, and so have all afternoon to fly home, I hear that you have a propensity to arrive around tea-time, usually just about the time the cake arrives... and so may be a wee bit late departing, and so...:wink:

Regards, SD..
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By Andrew Sinclair
#1883297
Fellsteruk wrote:Maybe I have a disregard for life but I don’t share the fear of night flying in a single. Sure if I have a failure it’s gonna be harder to know I’ve got a good landing spot and that may result in death but I don’t drive on the motorway...

I think it is a very personal matter. The way I consider the risk is the standard likelihood and the consequences model. The likelihood of having a powerplant emergency/failure at night is possibly no different than during the day, the traditional "The engine doesn't know the difference..." between day/night or land/sea discussion. However, the consequences of having a powerplant failure in a single engine aircraft at night are extremely serious because no matter how fantastic a pilot may be at forced landings, not having any knowledge of what you are landing 'into' is a bit of an erm...issue.

During the day, however, the same doesn't apply assuming you can land clear, a pilot may have reduced options but at least (s)he has some visibility on which to assess the suitability of a landing site and plan accordingly.

I don't feel the same in a SET because the likelihood of SET powerplant failure is vanishingly small, whereas the likelihood of having a powerplant failure in a SEP is significantly higher - I have had two.

Apply the same logic to the motorway scenario and in clear conditions with a 2 second gap between myself and the car ahead then no problem. Driving in thick fog on the same stretch of motorway the very next day not knowing how far the vehicles in front is ahead of me, scares me, so I don't do that.

I very often joke with students and say, that when you on final approach have planned your landing, post SEP powerplant failure, turn the landing light on and if you don't like what you see just turn it off again. :lol:
Last edited by Andrew Sinclair on Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By A4 Pacific
#1883320
Many years ago, a previous employer of mine was approved to recover our BN Islanders to Staverton at night and after the airfield was closed. Obviously no airfield lighting was available. Using the very rudimentary GPS of the time and local knowledge, it was possible to line up reasonably accurately for the centreline of 27. At some point during the approach it was usually possible to pick out a distinctive light above a doorway which I knew to be just to the left of short final. However it was only at around 100 maybe 200’ or so above the runway that the landing lights would start to pick out anything in the pitch black. That was over a tarmac runway! (Hopefully! :roll: )

I was followed in one night by a helicopter using NVG (gen 3?) and on the same task as me. The pilot said to me “pretty dark here isn’t it!” :shock: :lol: :lol:
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