Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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#1878289
Okay so this is my first ever post here and i really need to clear my mind with some stuff!

I live in the UK and have done half of my PPL here already, i started in late 2019 and due to weather and lockdown 2 years later im still unable to complete.

Im now looking to go hawaii to finish it up quickly and will be starting my ATPLs in january with bristol gs.

My first question is, because i will complete my PPL in hawaii i will have an FAA License. Will i be able to start and complete my CAA ATPL’s with Bristol even though i have an FAA PPL?

Secondly, once i have the CAA ATPL which please correct me if im wrong, CAA ATPL is also the same as an ICAO ATPL. Once i have completed the theory, IR, MCC, 1500 hours and have a full ATPL. I will be looking to go UAE, they require ICAO ATPL, will i be able to apply for a job there with what i have (CAA ATPL) or will i have to do some sort of conversion or GCAA or extra exams, licensing or any of such?

Sorry for so much i just want to have this all cleared out before i take the next steps, thanks in advance for any help!!
#1878293
You need to get some in depth personal advice (and soon) to be honest - and not from Internet forums - I would speak to Bristol GS right away. The modular pathway depends on a number of sequential building blocks and some of the routing you propose above is not possible and you could potentially waste a lot of time and money. Good luck with it all
#1878298
Dange wrote:
My first question is, because i will complete my PPL in hawaii i will have an FAA License. Will i be able to start and complete my CAA ATPL’s with Bristol even though i have an FAA PPL?


The prerequsite for commencing an ATPL course with BGS is to hold an ICAO PPL

Dange wrote:Secondly, once i have the CAA ATPL which please correct me if im wrong, CAA ATPL is also the same as an ICAO ATPL. Once i have completed the theory, IR, MCC, 1500 hours and have a full ATPL. I will be looking to go UAE, they require ICAO ATPL, will i be able to apply for a job there with what i have (CAA ATPL) or will i have to do some sort of conversion or GCAA or extra exams, licensing or any of such?


By the time you have completed the above (which assumes you will gain a job in the UK in a multi pilot role, along with the requisite number of night and IFR hours), a few years will have passed and the rules could well have changed by then. It will also be dependent on what the particular airline you apply to in the UAE demands at the time.
Why not train in the UAE intially? There are schools in Al Ain, Fujeirah and Makthoum.
#1878312
MattL wrote:You need to get some in depth personal advice (and soon) to be honest - and not from Internet forums - I would speak to Bristol GS right away. The modular pathway depends on a number of sequential building blocks and some of the routing you propose above is not possible and you could potentially waste a lot of time and money. Good luck with it all


What exact route would you be talking about when you said would not be possible?

Thanks for ur reply
#1878316
AndyR wrote:
Dange wrote:
My first question is, because i will complete my PPL in hawaii i will have an FAA License. Will i be able to start and complete my CAA ATPL’s with Bristol even though i have an FAA PPL?


The prerequsite for commencing an ATPL course with BGS is to hold an ICAO PPL

Dange wrote:Secondly, once i have the CAA ATPL which please correct me if im wrong, CAA ATPL is also the same as an ICAO ATPL. Once i have completed the theory, IR, MCC, 1500 hours and have a full ATPL. I will be looking to go UAE, they require ICAO ATPL, will i be able to apply for a job there with what i have (CAA ATPL) or will i have to do some sort of conversion or GCAA or extra exams, licensing or any of such?


By the time you have completed the above (which assumes you will gain a job in the UK in a multi pilot role, along with the requisite number of night and IFR hours), a few years will have passed and the rules could well have changed by then. It will also be dependent on what the particular airline you apply to in the UAE demands at the time.
Why not train in the UAE intially? There are schools in Al Ain, Fujeirah and Makthoum.


Okay perfect that means FAA PPL should be fine to commence the ATPLs with Bristol GS

Appreciate ur response to the second question, Ive wanted to go for emirates for many years as the final set up and stay and since i first ever checked over the last 3/4 the requirements have stayed the same which is just an ICAO ATPL. As for training in UAE i would love to do that but most schools there only take Emiratis. Could you recommend any that are fairly priced and would allow a UK individual to train and complete licenses which would in the end result in a greater chance for a job in the country?
#1878605
"Im now looking to go hawaii to finish it up quickly and will be starting my ATPLs in january with bristol gs."

Which school in Hawaii? Are you a US national? Is the school approved as a Part 141 school by FAA and certified by SEVIS for the enrolment of alien students? The only SEVIS-certified Part 141 school in Hawaii is Mauna Loa Helicopters which is still awaiting FAA approval of the fixed-wing private pilot Part 141 course. There is no guarantee that that approval will be in place before the end of the year. Further, it's possible SEVIS certification will be delayed until FAA approval is obtained for the fixed-wing Part 141 commercial and instrument courses, which was the case when the school sought SEVIS certification for the rotary courses.

It's also worth mentioning that the minimum course requirements, as specified in the relevant Appendix to Part 141, can be reduced by not more than one quarter, based on training received outside of a Part 141 school. For example the minimum flight training for the private pilot certificate is 35 hours, Part 141 appendix B.4(a)(1), so no more than 8.75 hours can be credited. Some Part 141 schools will allow aliens, attending on a student visa (or status), to terminate the 141 programme early once the training requirements in Part 61 are met. Under Part 61 all flight training received by an ICAO FI outside the US can be credited. However, the TSA does not like the practice of students being terminated early under Part 61. The post-course grace period, 30 or 60 days for the M-1 and F-1 student visas respectively, is also contingent on completion of the 141 course.

The SEVIS database of flight schools, which are certified under US federal law to enrol aliens, is at https://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search

Further, European theory provider should be consulted on whether the requirement for an ICAO PPL can be fulfilled by holding only a temporary US pilot certificate. One of these will be issued by the US examiner or inspector upon successful completion of the private pilot practical test. It might take a month or two until the permanent certificate is received.

Having had a brief glance at the UAE GCAA site (https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/Departments/AS/Pages/licensingreqs.aspx), it appears the UAE ATPL requirements have been copied from Part-FCL. Significantly, the ATPL requires experience of 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes. Are you certain you need an ICAO ATPL rather than a so-called frozen ATPL (CPL, MEIR, ATPL theory/exams)?
#1878624
Qalupalik wrote:"Im now looking to go hawaii to finish it up quickly and will be starting my ATPLs in january with bristol gs."

Which school in Hawaii? Are you a US national? Is the school approved as a Part 141 school by FAA and certified by SEVIS for the enrolment of alien students?

The SEVIS database of flight schools, which are certified under US federal law to enrol aliens, is at https://studyinthestates.dhs.gov/school-search

Further, European theory provider should be consulted on whether the requirement for an ICAO PPL can be fulfilled by holding only a temporary US pilot certificate. One of these will be issued by the US examiner or inspector upon successful completion of the private pilot practical test. It might take a month or two until the permanent certificate is received.

Having had a brief glance at the UAE GCAA site (https://www.gcaa.gov.ae/en/Departments/AS/Pages/licensingreqs.aspx), it appears the UAE ATPL requirements have been copied from Part-FCL. Significantly, the ATPL requires experience of 500 hours in multi-pilot operations on aeroplanes. Are you certain you need an ICAO ATPL rather than a so-called frozen ATPL (CPL, MEIR, ATPL theory/exams)?


Thanks for your thorough response. Firstly Bristol GS have got back to me and told me that any ICAO PPL is required to enrol for ATPL theorys so it does not HAVE to be UK CAA PPL.

As for the school in Hawaii (i am not a US national) they are ‘Pacific flight academy’. Im not sure if they are part 141 or 61 or certified by SEVIS for alien enrolment, BUT they have already told me that as im coming from UK the main thing i need to get done is a TSA AFSP approval and that because i have done 20 hours already they said to just budget for 25/30 hours for completion.

From what im aware of im perfectly fine where i stand right now and there should be no problem in getting this PPL done in Hawaii? After this Bristol gs will accept the FAA PPL for enrolment so is there anything im missing out on that could be a roadblock in this process for full ATPL?

As for UAE you may have misunderstood me slightly, the 1500 hours (full ICAO ATPL) is required by Emirates themselves for the minimum requirement of a first officer.
#1878637
Pacific Flight Academy is not listed as a SEVP-certified educational establishment. Unless the training provider is a satellite base for a SEVP-certified Part 141 school it will be illegal for you to undertake training there, unless admitted to the US under a class of visa which entitles you to pursue a course of study. Search for the Nonimmigrants: Who Can Study? table published by ICE.

These are immigration regulations which are separate from the transportation security regulations under the agency of the TSA. Happy to cite the relevant regulations.

"From what im aware of im perfectly fine where i stand right now and there should be no problem in getting this PPL done in Hawaii?"

As a non-US national you'll need an M-1/F-1 student visa to pursue a course of study in the US. The M-1/F-1 visa in turn requires that you attend the educational establishment on a full-time basis. Only SEVP-certified Part 141 flight schools can issue you a Form I-20 Certificate of Eligibility for Nonimmigrant Student Status which is required to apply to the US embassy/consulate for the M-1/F-1 visa.

Re ICAO PPL, why don't you ask BGS whether enrolment depends on the permanent US pilot certificate having been issued?

"the 1500 hours (full ICAO ATPL)"

If your UAE plans do not require multi-pilot flight experience then you might be better off pursuing a US airline transport pilot certificate by completing private/commercial/instrument/instructor courses under an F-1 visa in the US. That would allow you to build experience towards the 1 500 hours by working in the US as an instructor. You can use the above DHS schools database to find suitable schools which can enrol students under an F-1 visa.
#1878668
Qalupalik wrote:Pacific Flight Academy is not listed as a SEVP-certified educational establishment. Unless the training provider is a satellite base for a SEVP-certified Part 141 school it will be illegal for you to undertake training there, unless admitted to the US under a class of visa which entitles you to pursue a course of study. Search for the Nonimmigrants: Who Can Study? table published by ICE.

These are immigration regulations which are separate from the transportation security regulations under the agency of the TSA. Happy to cite the relevant regulations.

"From what im aware of im perfectly fine where i stand right now and there should be no problem in getting this PPL done in Hawaii?"

As a non-US national you'll need an M-1/F-1 student visa to pursue a course of study in the US. The M-1/F-1 visa in turn requires that you attend the educational establishment on a full-time basis. Only SEVP-certified Part 141 flight schools can issue you a Form I-20 Certificate of Eligibility for Nonimmigrant Student Status which is required to apply to the US embassy/consulate for the M-1/F-1 visa.

Re ICAO PPL, why don't you ask BGS whether enrolment depends on the permanent US pilot certificate having been issued?

"the 1500 hours (full ICAO ATPL)"

If your UAE plans do not require multi-pilot flight experience then you might be better off pursuing a US airline transport pilot certificate by completing private/commercial/instrument/instructor courses under an F-1 visa in the US. That would allow you to build experience towards the 1 500 hours by working in the US as an instructor. You can use the above DHS schools database to find suitable schools which can enrol students under an F-1 visa.


I guess ill speak to pacific flight academy about the legality and regulations as from their end they seem to be fine with everything and they have had numerous non US nationals so im sure they’ll help sort that aspect out for me.

With BGS all they require is an ICAO PPL, of course wherever i complete my PPL it will be a permanent certificate and currently i dont see any need to convert it back to CAA as my main concern was being able to enrol onto the ATPL Theory and once i was told i can enrol with any ICAO im not fussed on having it converted ill stick with the FAA License until if i need to change.

As for UAE its Emirates they most definitely require multi pilot experience but this part of my plans are fairly straight forward so im not really stressing about this. My main stress was about getting to Hawaii completing my FAA license and coming back UK to start ATPL theory.

Since i first posted, BGS has been sorted and cleared so no worries for that. Hawaii seem to be fine with me being from UK and have told me theres no problem so hopefully all goes well wish me luck guys!
#1878795
"they seem to be fine with everything"

Part 61 training providers are commonly optimistic about the immigration requirements and seldom refuse business to aliens admitted as visitors. However, it is illegal for an alien admitted as a visitor to pursue a course of study, pursuant to 8 CFR 214.2(b)(7) (enrollment in a course of study prohibited).

The Executive Associate Commissioner of the INS provided this relevant interpretation in a 12 Apr 2002 memo (pdf) on the "prohibition of B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrants enrolling in a course of study prior to a change of nonimmigrant status":

The prohibition against beginning a course of study prior to obtaining Service approval of
a change of nonimmigrant status request is limited to B-1 or B-2 nonimmigrants. The
term "course of study" implies a focused program of classes, such as a full-time course
load leading to a degree or, in the case of a vocational student, some type of certification.
Casual, short-term classes that are not the primary purpose of the alien’s presence in the
United States, such as a single English language or crafts class, would not constitute a
"course of study." Courses with more substance or that teach a potential vocation, such
as flight training, would be considered part of a "course of study" and thus would require
approval of a student status.