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#1835379
I am an EASA (Swiss) PPL license holder, currently living in UK. I noticed there are some strange rules in PART-FCL about training outside EASA airspace (section "GM1 FCL.900(c)"), and I hope someone could clarify those.

If that matters, I fly G-reg plane.

There are several things I want to do this year:
1) Revalidate my SEP (expiring in June) by experience. I've got the experience part already, but I need a flight with an instructor.
a) Do I need to look for an EASA instructor, or will CAA instructor be sufficient?
b) Does the instructor need to apply for any special authorization from Swiss aviation authority (FOCA)?
c) Can this be done outside ATO?
2) Start my CB-IR training.
a) My assumption here is that for 15 hours I can have any instructor (including non-EASA), is this correct?
b) Assuming that for the other 15 hours I find IRI-rated EASA flight instructor. Again, do they need to apply for special authorization, and can the training be done outside ATO?

P. S. I already sent the same questions to FOCA about a week ago, but still haven't received a response. Once I get it I'll post an update. For now, I wonder what experience did anyone have and what should I expect.
Summary of the FOCA's response is here.
Last edited by Dlougach on Thu Apr 22, 2021 7:32 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1835521
A) You'll need an EASA FI for the SEP training flight. You can use one based in the UK, but a UK-CAA certificated FI is no good. I haven't had to sign FOCA paperwork before, but most EASA Member States will accept an Examiner from another State. This can all be done outside an ATO.

B) The rules are a little more complex, and I refer you to Part FCL Appendix 6 "Competency-based modular flying training course". Long story short, if you use an EASA FI or IRI approved for IR instruction you can claim credit for 30 hours of the 40 hour course. If they're not approved for IR instruction, you can claim credit for 15 hours. These hours can be done outside an ATO. In either case, you'll need need a minimum of 10 hours instruction at an ATO before test.

Remember you must take your initial IR test in EASA airspace. Perhaps plan for more than 10 hours at the ATO to acclimatise to a different environment..
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1835553
Arrow Flyer wrote:most EASA Member States will accept an Examiner from another State.


From personal experience, Im not so sure about that. There were changes around 2014-2016, I would suggest that the OP actually ask the Swiss aviation authority directly what is acceptable, there are variations from country to country.

Arrow Flyer wrote:Remember you must take your initial IR test in EASA airspace. Perhaps plan for more than 10 hours at the ATO to acclimatise to a different environment..


Perhaps there are EASA state of licence issue country variations about this too? Unless the rules have changed, there were schools and flight academies in other countries outside Europe doing EASA PPL through to ATPL courses before 2020 - I saw the adverts!! Not that Im saying there are schools set up since 1/1/2021 in the UK to do this though...

Regards, SD..
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1835554
I know that you needed individual permission from your NAA when not using an examiner from your native NAA; I know that the ATO's outside the UK got their students to the UK for the CPL/IR flight tests whether that was a convenience thing or regulatory requirement I don't know.
#1835573
Notification is always required for a test/check if the examiner isn't certificated by the same authority as the licence holder.

I admit I didn't check the Examiner Differences Document yesterday evening, but having done so this morning the majority of member states will accept licence endorsement for SEP - a few such as Estonia, France, Hungary and Switzerland will not. It's not a problem, the FI/CRI completing the training flight can sign FOCA's form 60.521 then email it to them for licence endorsement.

Regarding the IR, it's a regulatory requirement contained in Part ORA:

ORA.ATO.150 Training in third countries
When the ATO is approved to provide training for the instrument rating (IR) in third countries:
(a) the training programme shall include acclimatisation flying in one of the Member States before
the IR skill test is taken; and
(b) the IR skill test shall be taken in one of the Member States.
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#1835656
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:It might be useful tu put a direct link into your post so we can have a look.

Not sure what link you suggest to post, but I've now updated the original post with the specific section in Part-FCL that got me worried.


Arrow Flyer wrote:A) You'll need an EASA FI for the SEP training flight. You can use one based in the UK, but a UK-CAA certificated FI is no good. I haven't had to sign FOCA paperwork before, but most EASA Member States will accept an Examiner from another State. This can all be done outside an ATO.


Thanks, that's what I needed to know.

Arrow Flyer wrote:B) The rules are a little more complex, and I refer you to Part FCL Appendix 6 "Competency-based modular flying training course". Long story short, if you use an EASA FI or IRI approved for IR instruction you can claim credit for 30 hours of the 40 hour course. If they're not approved for IR instruction, you can claim credit for 15 hours. These hours can be done outside an ATO. In either case, you'll need need a minimum of 10 hours instruction at an ATO before test.

Remember you must take your initial IR test in EASA airspace. Perhaps plan for more than 10 hours at the ATO to acclimatise to a different environment..


Good, so, if I do any instrument training with non-EASA instructor that won't count even towards the 15 hours.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1835676
@Dlougach

Please note my post and @Arrow Flyer second post wrt SEP rating revalidation - I knew about the France & formerly the UK from experience, Switzerland is the same unfortunately.

Regards, SD..
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1835680
Dlougach wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:It might be useful tu put a direct link into your post so we can have a look.

Not sure what link you suggest to post, but I've now updated the original post with the specific section in Part-FCL that got me worried.



How about the bit here:
Image
#1835793
skydriller wrote:@Dlougach

Please note my post and @Arrow Flyer second post wrt SEP rating revalidation - I knew about the France & formerly the UK from experience, Switzerland is the same unfortunately.

Regards, SD..


I think even a Swiss instructor wouldn’t be able to endorse the license for SEP, the way it typically works in Switzerland is that you need to get an instructor sign the form and send it to FOCA.

Additionally in the past you normally needed to go to any airport C office with the logbook and filled form so that the airport manager would confirm that you’ve counted the required hours correctly (for real!). Right now they have a new digital logbook system where this step isn’t needed, but it costs 8CHF/month.
#1835799
I would just highlight that for the EASA instrument rating, such as the CBIR, you must complete the training and take the IR skill test in an EASA member state. That rule was originally put in place to protect UK flight training organisations who didn't want to lose business to their USA counterparts, but has come back to bite. Some large commercial training schools have moved or outsourced their EASA IR training to Ireland, Belgium and elsewhere, although training and skill test towards a UK IR can be retained - there are moves afoot to try to relax this EASA requirement.

As mentioned above, many UK commercial schools have been given permission by EASA to conduct EASA training and PPL/CPL skill tests even if their instructors/examiners only have UK licences.
#1835830
DavidC wrote:I would just highlight that for the EASA instrument rating, such as the CBIR, you must complete the training and take the IR skill test in an EASA member state.


Does this apply to ATO part of the training only or to flight instruction credit too? If it's the latter that would be quite unfortunate to say the least.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1835832
@Flyin'Dutch' I know when we had an Austrian pilot (sideline great story about him and his... errr... politics, obviously not allowed to relate here) who was working here in JAA times, I had to "airfield stamp" each separate line of his log book or according to him, it wouldn't count to his 12 hours when he applied for revalidation by experience. Trouble was the stamp was round and bigger than a 50p, but it had to be done!
Also, if the Swiss or anyone else doesn't want revalidations "in the field", then ok, that was up to NAAs in the 2012 version of Fcl, but I always wondered how that fitted in later when fcl was changed to say that the instructor completing the hour's training (if fcl.945 holder) MUST revalidate the rating if the flying requirements are met.
#1835833
Irv Lee wrote:... but I always wondered how that fitted in later when fcl was changed to say that the instructor completing the hour's training (if fcl.945 holder) MUST revalidate the rating if the flying requirements are met.


This is what FCL.945 actually says:

.. shall endorse the applicant's licence with the new expiry date of the
rating or certificate, if specifically authorised for that purpose by the competent authority responsible
for the applicant's licence
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