Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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#1759695
The flaw in that argument is that UK legislation for Non-EASA aircraft, could say that a post it note saying "I'm a pilot" is all that's required.
It doesn't matter what EASA say with regards allowed derogations, unless UK legislation says it matters.
This feels like it needs re-clarified by someone more senior. It also has nothing to do with CV19.

Their website matches my interpretation
https://www.caa.co.uk/General-Aviation/ ... te-pilots/
flybymike liked this
#1759700
That website page is well out of date and really should be taken down until it can be amended. I've just discussed it with the CAA and the intention is indeed to replace the website page shortly.

Incidentally, there has been a minor amendment to ORS4 No.1374 - Note 4(d) now includes amended references for the forms to be used.
Last edited by nickwilcock on Wed Apr 08, 2020 3:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1759709
It was the UK government, not the CAA, who pushed for the changes with respect to the use of a Part-FCL LAPL/PPL without a Part-MED certificate to fly non-EASA aircraft!

As you may recall from the time, Ed - I always said that the use of a Part-FCL licence without a Part-MED medical was somewhat dubious under EU law.
#1759725
Nick - how could I possibly forget... :)

These sort of arguments move with the wind a bit depending on the outlook of the desk officers and lawyers involved. The contentious ground always seemed to be when an EASA licence holder, having given up their EASA medical could then go and fly an EASA aircraft within LAPL privileges on the basis that the licence had taken on the legal personality of a national one.

From a rule making point of view, the divergence of the legal status of a licence privilege and its original / documented (as in what it physically says on it) legal basis for issuance, is not a good thing to start messing around with.

However at the time it was all go in terms of extracting maximum utility out of the legal avenues and the GA Unit pushed for 'otherwise valid' EASA PPL + PMD to be a legal combination, rather than saying that a UK PPL had to be issued to use PMD.

On balance I don't think that was an unreasonable position to take and certainly in terms of non-EASA aircraft I can't really see the CAA back pedaling on that.

riverrock - in terms of ORS4 and what it 'overules' - ORS4 is just a publication mechanism, it doesn't overule anything. Every exemption / permission will always cite the authorising legal instrument at the outset, ie Article 71 of the EASA BR, the ANO etc.
#1759750
Irv Lee wrote:@Highland Park remember you do not have an easa ppl that expires, you have an easa class rating that expires, so yes this exemption about class ratings (and other things) applies to you.
Break Break
Anyone want to make an sep briefing video to standardise what everyone gets? (*). Watch that whilst in contact with suitable FI or examiner so you can ask questions, & at end, issue extension certificate
Break Break
Can we assume exemption soon for nppl ratings?

(* there should be a standard caa "current hot topics" one anyway in normal times so that pilots are supposed to watch prior to reval just so all are aware of current issues)

I’m working on a PowerPoint briefing for this, which can be delivered by Skype or similar. I still have some tweaks to make, but I’ll PM you with my efforts when they are ready.
Irv Lee liked this
#1759753
Edward Bellamy wrote:riverrock - in terms of ORS4 and what it 'overules' - ORS4 is just a publication mechanism, it doesn't overule anything. Every exemption / permission will always cite the authorising legal instrument at the outset, ie Article 71 of the EASA BR, the ANO etc.

That was my point - it can't override the ANO which says you can use PMD with Part-FCL licence.
#1759758
Yes, it was a principle accepted by CAA legal at the time (2016) that if the ANO deems something to be thus / valid for the purposes of meeting a requirement wholly within the national legal sphere (ie a non-EASA aircraft) then the fact that that something may have lost its original legal basis in European law does not necessarily matter.

I think EASA / Commission have challenged that sort of thinking in different contexts, but I don’t really see what they can do about it...
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By Stu B
#1759779
The link previously provided in this thread to ORS4 No. 1374 ( http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1374.pdf ) now does not work and my attempts to find ORS4 No 1374 via the search function on the CAA web site don't get me anywhere either. Is this because:
    The CAA Web Site is failing; or
    The CAA have moved it somewhere else; or
    THE CAA have withdrawn it and issued a replacement under a different ORS4 number; or
    The CAA have withdrawn it without (yet?) any replacement?
#1759780
Stu B wrote:The link previously provided in this thread to ORS4 No. 1374 ( http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/1374.pdf ) now does not work and my attempts to find ORS4 No 1374 via the search function on the CAA web site don't get me anywhere either. Is this because:
    The CAA Web Site is failing; or
    The CAA have moved it somewhere else; or
    THE CAA have withdrawn it and issued a replacement under a different ORS4 number; or
    The CAA have withdrawn it without (yet?) any replacement?


They've changed the filename

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/ORS41374.pdf
Stu B liked this
By PaulB
#1759785
Edward Bellamy wrote:ORS4 contents can always be found at caa.co.uk/ORS4


Which is the top hit when you google ORS4
#1759974
QSD wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:@Highland Park remember you do not have an easa ppl that expires, you have an easa class rating that expires, so yes this exemption about class ratings (and other things) applies to you.
Break Break
Anyone want to make an sep briefing video to standardise what everyone gets? (*). Watch that whilst in contact with suitable FI or examiner so you can ask questions, & at end, issue extension certificate
Break Break
Can we assume exemption soon for nppl ratings?

(* there should be a standard caa "current hot topics" one anyway in normal times so that pilots are supposed to watch prior to reval just so all are aware of current issues)

I’m working on a PowerPoint briefing for this, which can be delivered by Skype or similar. I still have some tweaks to make, but I’ll PM you with my efforts when they are ready.
Thanks QSD and Irv Lee.
I have just asked a question on this on "another forum" and got no response as yet. For our revalidating PPLs I was considering sending them a written briefing and getting them to confirm they'd read and understood it before issuing them with a Temp Certificate. Doing individual Skype/phone briefings would be very time-consuming and I almost certainly wouldn't get paid for it.
NS
Irv Lee, flybymike liked this
By PaulB
#1759978
I've suggested to our flying club that the FIs could perhaps prepare a briefing that could be delivered to multiple pilots via, perhaps Zoom.