Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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#1685455
Just in case it helps, I’ve just had my old UK PPL reissued, due to address change and to “tidy it up”. Received it two weeks ago from the CAA. (That’s my “full” “UK” “PPL” licence, whatever we like to call it, not EASA or NPPL etc...). It contains four valid ratings, SEP, TMG, SSEA and SLMG. So they can all be contained within a national licence (not SEP or TMG on an NPPL though). The SEP/ TMG ratings within a Non-EASA national licence now mirror the equivalent EASA rating revalidation/ renewal rules except for the EASA requirement of mandatory training/ course completion certificate etc. It’s just “as required”. Plus as Bathman says, no CAA involvement needed for renewal of a rating in a national licence, the examiner can do it all.
#1685511
To revalidate the UK SEP - I don't want to be EASA'd - can I simply get freelance refresher instruction in the Kitfox and then when he thinks I'm OK, a proficiency check in the Kitfox with an Examiner, he signs the revalidation and that's it?


The requirement for ATO involvement for renewal of class ratings in EASA licences is derived from FCL.740(b) and the associated AMC.

A requirement for ATO involvement is not contained within national regulation, so does not apply to a class rating contained in a national PPL (ie. UK PPL) or National PPL (NPPL). The text which precedes Table 1 in the ANO explains this (see ANO page 204 paragraph 3).

Therefore, the answer to your question is YES: for renewal of your SEP class rating in your UK PPL, it's just training as required with a suitably qualified instructor plus a SEP Proficiency Check with an examiner. Providing the class rating is in Section XII of your licence, the examiner can then sign your Certificate of Revalidation and complete the paperwork to send in to the CAA.

The LAA Pilot Coaching Scheme is a Registered Facility so can conduct renewal training for EASA licences; a number of LAA coaches are also examiners. See LAA coach map here: http://www.tinyurl.com/laacoach

ATB Cookie
#1685536
The text which precedes Table 1 in the ANO explains this (see ANO page 204 paragraph 3).


“3) For the purposes of paragraphs 1(1)(b) and (c), a reference in the following tables to—
(a) a paragraph of Part-FCL is a reference to the applicant needing to complete the requirements specified in that paragraph; and
(b) completing training or passing a proficiency check are references to the applicant needing to take the specified action.”

Please help a dense person. How does this paragraph explain that this doesn’t apply to a national licence?
#1685559
Read the renewal box column 4 in the table on the next page - complete training as the CAA may require and pass the proficiency check in accordance with Appendix 9 to Part FCL, ie the only bit of Part FCL that is applicable is the test schedule.

All that reference to Part FCL does is cross reference the test schedules and revalidation requirements - it doesn’t invoke everything else Part FCL, for example if you go down a few pages you will see IMC rating is the same.
#1685582
flybymike wrote:
I am one of many to have had SEP in my UK license since before JAR/EASA came on the scene.

Before JAR/EASA, there was surely no such thing as the SEP. You would have simply had a group A licence.


Yes bit carried away there sorry, but look at it this way -
If you had a group A license it was arbitrarily replaced by SEP in your UK national (small n) license. If you then kept only that license, didn't get JAR or EASA, and kept it valid by experience and check right up to today, surely that disproves any idea that it's not available in a national license if that is your only license?
I was trying to address Andy's concern that the ANO doesn't appear to allow this rating in a non EASA license.
We all need to be lawyers don't we?
#1685589
Thank you Balliol that's a very useful document. However looking at app 4 I'm glad its recommendations are not mandatory.
Unless anyone finds a dirty big spanner to chuck in the cogs, my way forward does now seem clear. Find my Instructor (provisionally done) and Examiner - and get on with it when the LAA permit arrives.
Mike
#1685612
Hi all,

have read all above and more confused than ever.

I want to revalidate this year but i'm totally confused with all the talk of SSEA / SEP etc.

I have a CAA PPL national licence (poo brown issued in 1990. Looking at this the only rating I have is "Landplanes in Group A, SLMG" - nothing else, I have a FRTO licence also issued in 1990.

Am I right with my Group A I just need training deemed necessary to pass the flight test, redo radio licence and get something signed up for English bit. Then how I submit and with what to revalidate my poo brown I'm not 100%

Does the licence then get reissued to me as a CAA SEP licence

I would do this, if I can with a school in a EASA spam can as not many LAA types seem to be around yet for training.

Are there any Midlands / Worcester/Glous LAA Annex II types available with instructors/examiner yet?

If correct I assume this all needs to be submitted to CAA with large fees, primarily just for a CAA PPL renewal but I assume I could also apply for a EASA LAPL or PPL?? up until April 2020, when my CAA is reissued

My intention is do all this on a self declaration.

Is that still the way to go and legal, seems total confusion and variations, regular changes etc

Many thanks
#1685622
Wow a case that almost makes mine look simple!

Bigbangman, before I gradually discovered my best bet was to renew the SEP rating in my CAA ppl, I also looked to see if any school offered an NPPL in a relevant aircraft more economically but all I could find was traditional PA28 and C150 and upwards from there. That's why I decided to sort an aircraft out first and do it in that - more relevant and much cheaper.

The experts on here will be able to answer all your other questions, I'm not going to open my mouth and put my foot in it.

I wish you good luck!

PS You might need to start a new thread to catch attention - try "renewing an original poo brown Group A license" or similar!
Last edited by MikeW on Sun Mar 31, 2019 5:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1685641
Bigbangman

I'll leave Cookie (aka The Guru) to answer the core of your question.

However, if you need some training/coaching/polishing on an LAA type (now in Annex I rather than Annex II) I am a Stroud-based LAA coach and FI(A) normally operating out of Oaksey Park and would be happy to discuss what you'd need.

Drop me a PM if I could assist.