FLYER Forums

Really sorry to raise this again but after a year's enforced delay since Irv and Cookie clarified for me, now ready to go but have differing views from local instructors - yet again. In summary:

UK PPL(A) issued 1990, never converted to JAR or EASA.
4 page license issued 2008 (because of the language proficiency thing I think) with SEP (land), IMC and SLMG listed in section XII with nil remarks/restrictions. Also has rating validity pages with it.
Last cert of test/experience (by Toon Ghose RIP) valid until 14/09/07
I now own a Kitfox 4 (not microlight) that will v soon have its LAA permit, I've just fitted a 912 and testing is done.
I can self declare medically.

To revalidate the UK SEP - I don't want to be EASA'd - can I simply get freelance refresher instruction in the Kitfox and then when he thinks I'm OK, a proficiency check in the Kitfox with an Examiner, he signs the revalidation and that's it?

I believe that was the situation a year ago, I'm hoping it still is, but "some say" I must go to an approved establishment for a retraining program etc etc. That would probably push me into selling the plane and going back to sailing! Help please!

I'm well aware of the limitations and oddities of the Kitfox, I've had one before, but the odds are it's the only thing I'll fly (solo) again before I pack up, so not bothered about retraining on it.

MikeW wrote:"some say" I must go to an approved establishment for a retraining program etc etc.

Yes, you must have retraining, a course completion certificate and then a test. This must be under the auspices of an ATO or DTO. However most instructors and examiners will be under such an ATO or DTO so should be able to do it for you in your Kitfox as planned.

Yes, ssea slmg or microlight could be done outside the easa school system but i think sep has to use an ATO/DTO to renew but you don't need to convert the licence, and you can get all signed up locally. Get a language form done though with the prof check and send it in

It's a national licence so no need for DTO/ATO or course completion certificate - training as you wish with an instructor then rating renewal test with FE.

@Balliol When I last asked the caa said the Sep is an easa rating, and as it is defined for renewal and reval via fcl so they wanted it renewed that way whatever licence! Mind you I bet I asked before the 2016 ANO rewrite, that made a difference to reval based on what licence,

Balliol wrote:It's a national licence so no need for DTO/ATO or course completion certificate - training as you wish with an instructor then rating renewal test with FE.

Ah, that's interesting. Right. Mine needs renewing. Irv, what are you doing on Saturday?

I currently have an in-house examiner but that's no good unless the letters on the side of the aeroplane begin with C.

Hi Mike,
Sorry if I further confused you over the last two days! As you can see there are different interpretations. Now, according to the latest ANO, the only single-engine rating that can be included on a UK National Licence is ‘SSEA’ (page 202 of the latest edition). The ANO also only specifies renewal requirements for EASA ratings (and I agree with Irv that ‘SEP’ is now regarded as an EASA rating), which is under the umbrella of an ATO. So by omission, one can assume that no ‘official’ retraining is required for an SSEA. The question is that if your licence says “SEP”, can you do an “SSEA” flight test and write SSEA on the revalidation pages or will you have to get the CAA to issue a new rating? The ANO indicates that you can’t have an SEP on a UK national licence, but lots of people do.
Clear as mud.

Andy

You have to be careful with saying or reading "national PPL" as to whether it has, or implies, a capital N or not. If it named "National PPL" by name, then it's the NPPL and can include the SSEA rating (though I think a few early ones had the SEP rating!). For a UK national PPL, the proper one, not the NPPL, I don't know for certain but I'd have thought it would just be referred to as the PPL.

Alright. UK PPL it is. CAP 804 is defunct, of course, but the phrase ‘national licence’ is used there to mean ‘pre-JAR’. Probably best to clarify that point.

Mike, from reading your OP (and with apologies if this has already been discussed): If the SEP renewal proves impossible/awkward/expensive, I think that one option would be to get an SSEA rating added to your existing licence? It can be added to an old poo-brown UK PPL, although the CAA would charge to add it to the ratings page. You could have it added on the basis of your previous SEP rating after any training required and passing a flight test (although you'd need to check the NPPL cross-crediting document to see if the length of SEP expiry effects what you need to do - when I did this my SEP hadn't expired by that long.....).

Just a thought.... it sounds as if an SSEA rating would suit your flying fine.....

J.

Thank you for all contributions. I am staggered that the situation can be so incredibly complicated, over regulated and unclear simultaneously.
Andy, no you haven't confused me further and I'm grateful for your researches.
However we still don't seem to have certainty over the answer and from asking them before I think the CAA are the last people to clarify it. They told me I had to convert to an EASA license.
I am one of many to have had SEP in my UK license since before JAR/EASA came on the scene. There's never (AFAIK) been a CAA statement that it's no longer available as a national rating so how can it not be?
Flyingjohno, yes SSEA would cover what I currently want but it appears to mean going through the full process - and fees - to get a new rating, and if I subsequently moved to microlights I don't think that's covered just by differences training is it, wouldn't it be another rating, unlike with SEP?
I suppose I will have to see if I can find an instructor who can do it under the cover of an RTF without wanting me to rent their spamcan to do it.
Unless there is a way of doing it through LAA coaching scheme?

Sorry if this qualifies as a rant!

I am one of many to have had SEP in my UK license since before JAR/EASA came on the scene.

Before JAR/EASA, there was surely no such thing as the SEP. You would have simply had a group A licence.

It's dead easy. Training as required plus a test. Examiner signs your licence.

No CAA involvement required, no fees to the CAA and no waiting months for them to process your application.

Medical wise you can just do a medical declaration which is free.

It's exactly how it should be. Now someone tell me how EASA has made things better?

That’s good. Now, all that Mike needs is an examiner in the South-East that agrees with you. Any volunteers?

SussexLuscombe wrote:(and I agree with Irv that ‘SEP’ is now regarded as an EASA rating),

Well I only said that as the CAA had told me it had to be through an ato/rf (DTO now) but I am wondering if I fell for what I warn people against... if there is a legal solution that is harder or more expensive, and ALSO a 2nd legal solution that is easier and less expensive, and you ask, you only get the former!
I am not at home and have no intentionn trying to read the ANO on a small phone!