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By ConcordeBA
#1634608
So just looking at the CBIR on the CAA website and reading the following.

So I've read everything the following; that match my license.

Pre-requisites
  • a PPL(A) and FRTOL
  • Night Rating
Flying experience
  • 50 hours PIC and Cross country
Medical requirements
  • Class 2 with Class 1 Audiogram (Will be doing this in October)

So then I read the following.

Guidance on specific routes to gaining a CBIR

Guidance for pilots who have experience of instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes, under a rating providing the privileges to fly under IFR and in IMC

It says the following.

This bit that catches my eye out is the following; both of these sentences state that my IR(R) can be used towards the course for the CBIR? Is this now correct or wrong info? Little bit confused.

"You can claim a maximum of 35 hours towards the 45 hours course if you have flown under IFR and IMC conditions under the privileges of an EIR, ICAO IR or IMC/IR(R)."
"You can claim a maximum of 30 hours towards the 40 hours course if you have flown under IFR and IMC conditions under the privileges of an EIR, ICAO IR or IMC/IR(R)."

So what happened to only placing 15 hours from the IMC/IR(R)?

Theoretical knowledge training
You need to have completed the CBIR or IR(A) or EIR or ATPL(A) theoretical ground course with an approved training provider.

Theoretical knowledge examination
You need to have completed the CBIR or IR(A) or EIR or ATPL(A) theoretical examinations.
Single engine, single pilot instrument ratings

You can claim a maximum of 30 hours towards the 40 hours course if you have flown under IFR and IMC conditions under the privileges of an EIR, ICAO IR or IMC/IR(R).

You must have completed:

a minimum of 10 hours of instrument flight time under instruction in an aeroplane at an Authorised Training Organisation.

A minimum of 25 hours of dual instrument instruction
Multi engine, single pilot instrument ratings
You can claim a maximum of 35 hours towards the 45 hours course if you have flown under IFR and IMC conditions under the privileges of an EIR, ICAO IR or IMC/IR(R).

The flying training must include at least 10 hours of instrument flight time under instruction in an aeroplane at an approved training provider for the CBIR.

The total amount of dual instrument instruction must be at least of 25 hours, of which at least 15 hours shall be completed in a multi-engine aeroplane.

Skill test
You must complete a skill test for the IR with a suitably qualified Part FCL examiner in the aeroplane.
User avatar
By GrahamB
#1634619
For SEP, the minimum of 25 hours training has to include a minimum of 10 hours IR training at an ATO, the other 15 can be your IMCR/IRR training.

The other 15 hours can be credited from just flying under IFR in IMC.

It’s worded that way to provide maximum flexibility to people coming to the rating with a variety of previous experience. It doesn’t say that all the 30 hours credited have to be flown using the privileges of a previously gained rating; implicit is that up to 15 can be the training for that rating.

For MEP, add 5 hours where appropriate.
#1634958
Instructor Errant wrote:I wish the CAA would not implicitly refer to the CB-IR as a qualification when it is a training route for an EASA IR just like the integrated route and the modular training route :wall:
GrahamB wrote:For SEP, the minimum of 25 hours training has to include a minimum of 10 hours IR training at an ATO, the other 15 can be your IMCR/IRR training.

The other 15 hours can be credited from just flying under IFR in IMC.

It’s worded that way to provide maximum flexibility to people coming to the rating with a variety of previous experience. It doesn’t say that all the 30 hours credited have to be flown using the privileges of a previously gained rating; implicit is that up to 15 can be the training for that rating.

For MEP, add 5 hours where appropriate.


I am still not following the wording? Does it mean that if I've got 27 hours on my IMCr (IR(R)) I can foward those towards my application of the 40/45 hours or whatever it is for the IR(A) using the CB-IR route?

Meaning if I was amazing at flying, which I don't think I am I would only need to do say for example 18 hours for the license application of the IR(A)?
#1635095
ConcordeBA wrote:I am still not following the wording? Does it mean that if I've got 27 hours on my IMCr (IR(R)) I can foward those towards my application of the 40/45 hours or whatever it is for the IR(A) using the CB-IR route?

Meaning if I was amazing at flying, which I don't think I am I would only need to do say for example 18 hours for the license application of the IR(A)?


I think it's moderately clear.

The base requirement is that you will require a minimum of 40 hrs IFR experience (for CB-IR on SEP) prior to being permitted to take the Initial IR Test. Credit for some of those hours can be claimed but the absolute minimum of formal training you must do at an ATO (no matter how many zillions of IFR/IMCR training hours you already have) is 10hrs of specific IR training at an ATO authorised to train you for the CB-IR.

The balance of the 40 hrs minimum that you need (therefore potentially up to 30 hrs once you've taken off the 10 that you have to do at an ATO) can be made up of credits that you can claim for prior experience or for prior training up to a maximum of 15hrs of prior training (which could be the training you did for your IMCR) and/or up to 20 hrs of your own prior IFR experience that you might have gained as captain on flights after you had obtained your IMCR/IRR.

But in any event, no matter how much prior training or prior experience you may have, you still need to do a minimum of 10 hrs training for the CB-IR at an ATO. But yes, if you have that experience under your belt and you are current and competent then you can get your IR in 10 hrs. That's the beauty of the CB route to the IR.

NB: that these are minimum figures. The IRT is conducted by a senior examiner and is exactly the same IRT that everyone sits, no matter how they got there. It is a pretty demanding test (some would say that it is the most demanding flight test you'll ever take) and you need to be very much on the ball. There are plenty of threads written by people who have completed this journey and I think that many will concur that the actual instrument flying is the easy bit. The planning, the RT and the tighter tolerances are where the bar is raised considerably from the IMCR/IRR test.

Good luck.
#1635776
Balliol wrote:15 hours = IMC course
10 hours = IR training at ATO (that’s the minimum, and wth your IMC course gives you the 25 required)
20hours = PIC using your IMC


This makes perfect sense now. So I can use the IR(R) as a tool to perfect my skills whilst studying all the theory before conducting any practical element.

David Wood wrote:
ConcordeBA wrote:I am still not following the wording? Does it mean that if I've got 27 hours on my IMCr (IR(R)) I can foward those towards my application of the 40/45 hours or whatever it is for the IR(A) using the CB-IR route?

Meaning if I was amazing at flying, which I don't think I am I would only need to do say for example 18 hours for the license application of the IR(A)?


I think it's moderately clear.

The base requirement is that you will require a minimum of 40 hrs IFR experience (for CB-IR on SEP) prior to being permitted to take the Initial IR Test. Credit for some of those hours can be claimed but the absolute minimum of formal training you must do at an ATO (no matter how many zillions of IFR/IMCR training hours you already have) is 10hrs of specific IR training at an ATO authorised to train you for the CB-IR.

The balance of the 40 hrs minimum that you need (therefore potentially up to 30 hrs once you've taken off the 10 that you have to do at an ATO) can be made up of credits that you can claim for prior experience or for prior training up to a maximum of 15hrs of prior training (which could be the training you did for your IMCR) and/or up to 20 hrs of your own prior IFR experience that you might have gained as captain on flights after you had obtained your IMCR/IRR.

But in any event, no matter how much prior training or prior experience you may have, you still need to do a minimum of 10 hrs training for the CB-IR at an ATO. But yes, if you have that experience under your belt and you are current and competent then you can get your IR in 10 hrs. That's the beauty of the CB route to the IR.

NB: that these are minimum figures. The IRT is conducted by a senior examiner and is exactly the same IRT that everyone sits, no matter how they got there. It is a pretty demanding test (some would say that it is the most demanding flight test you'll ever take) and you need to be very much on the ball. There are plenty of threads written by people who have completed this journey and I think that many will concur that the actual instrument flying is the easy bit. The planning, the RT and the tighter tolerances are where the bar is raised considerably from the IMCR/IRR test.

Good luck.


I am based on a private reg at Stapleford, so hopefully I can use that aircraft - if not I'll see what Stapleford can offer. I presume they'll do the theory side of things too - but if not whilst the days get shorter I can be looking at pad pilot or similar.

But yes, if you have that experience under your belt and you are current and competent then you can get your IR in 10 hrs. That's the beauty of the CB route to the IR.


That really makes things a lot less expensive. But it means I can enhance my skill set at no cost. I've just left my old job and got a new job that allows me to do £500-750 flying a month. About 5 hours a month.

One thing which you've echoed about the IR is that it's an extremely hard test. But something I reckon anyone given the drive can work towards, so I'll re-validate my medical and apply for an audio-gram in the next few weeks so that's one thing sorted then start flying again and get my IR(R) renewed (Expired July). A warmish winter and it'll be good news for starting the CB-IR and under my belt by the Summer.
#1635949
Balliol wrote:Be aware your aircraft will need capable of and approved for RNAV approaches as an initial IR will require them


It has a very good IFR specifcation. GNS430 - I've done an RNAV in the aircraft but it's not got the vertical profile, only the lateral. I think you need the GNS430W for that. It does not do LPV though.
#1635975
ConcordeBA wrote:
Balliol wrote:Be aware your aircraft will need capable of and approved for RNAV approaches as an initial IR will require them


It has a very good IFR specifcation. GNS430 - I've done an RNAV in the aircraft but it's not got the vertical profile, only the lateral. I think you need the GNS430W for that. It does not do LPV though.

As indicated by the Balliol’s statement above, not only do you need to the kit to fly a PBN approach, but you must have a supplement in your POH/AFM showing that the installation of that kit in that aircraft is approved for approaches. A lot of GNS430s were installed without that approval, or the supplement may even specifically state that approaches are not approved.
#1638238
GrahamB wrote:
ConcordeBA wrote:
Balliol wrote:Be aware your aircraft will need capable of and approved for RNAV approaches as an initial IR will require them


It has a very good IFR specifcation. GNS430 - I've done an RNAV in the aircraft but it's not got the vertical profile, only the lateral. I think you need the GNS430W for that. It does not do LPV though.

As indicated by the Balliol’s statement above, not only do you need to the kit to fly a PBN approach, but you must have a supplement in your POH/AFM showing that the installation of that kit in that aircraft is approved for approaches. A lot of GNS430s were installed without that approval, or the supplement may even specifically state that approaches are not approved.


The owner did his IR(A) on the aircraft recently, so presumably nothing has changed. So at least there's that, it's just getting the ATO that operates at the airfield to agree to it. I am sure they will, if they have before. If not I'll consider what they offer but considering I already have an aircraft to fly it might be wise.


RE Original Question -

I managed to renew my Class 2 and get an Audiogram on it. So the next step is finding a distant learning course using an iPad and a location to take the exams. I live in London and will be working full time. Anyone got any suggestions?

I want to get all the theory out of the way, whilst I bolster my skills using the IMCr/IR(R).
#1638277
It appears that only http://www.catsaviation.com offer the TK course for the CB-IR training route.

Bristol.GS tested the water a few years ago but then the course dissapeared from their website perhaps due lack of demand?

It is worth checking the PoH/FM to make sure regarding the GNS430. It would be an awful shame if having paid the £7## for an examiner to ask to see the PoH/FM and the supplement not be in place. You may end up doing an NDB/DME for the NPA approach instead :puker:
By MSGr
#1640871
The relevant Part-FCL is below, I would rely on this and not on the CAA website :-).

I have a question about the credits permitted under 6(a)(i) using "prior experience of instrument flight time as PIC" that can be accumulated by a IMC/IR(R) holder.

What are the practical types of flights that can be done as a PPL(A) IMC/IR(R) holder to achieve that? I'm not an IMC/IR(R) holder, but evaluating how it can work by going down this path, so I am lacking some perspective.

Instrument flight time is by sole reference to instruments.
What combination of conditions (VMC or IMC), airspace (class D, E [where is this?], or G -- since IMC/IR()R holders are excluded from being PIC in A/B/C) and service (e.g. radar service in Class D in IMC?) can I fly to achieve that?
Because any time the conditions are VMC I could be cheating by looking outside, unless I had foggles and a safety pilot (is this an option?).
Yet any time the conditions are IMC, the IMC/IR(R) restrictions limit to either D/E (not geographically extensive, but well controlled) or G (geographically extensive, but not controlled -- who is going to fly IMC here?!).

So what types of flights could I do in the UK to meet this?
Or was it written less with IMC/IR(R) in mind by with Enroute-IR in mind, so doesn't fit for IMC/IR(R)?


On a side note, the wording is poor. The requirement is expressed as "at least 40 hours of instrument time under instruction", then the credit is expressed as "prior experience of instrument flight time as PIC" applied to "the 40 hours above" which could be read to imply it still needs to be "under instruction" time, not an exception to it. Wouldn't have worded it that way myself back in my days of contract review ...


5. An approved competency-based modular IR(A) course shall comprise at least 80 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction. The theoretical knowledge course may contain computer-based training and e-learning elements. A minimum amount of classroom teaching as required by ORA.ATO.305 has to be provided.

6. The method of attaining an IR(A) following this modular course is competency based.

However, the minimum requirements below shall be completed by the applicant. Additional training
may be required to reach required competencies.

(a) A single-engine competency-based modular IR(A) course shall include at least 40 hours of instrument time under instruction, of which up to 10 hours may be instrument ground time in an FNPT I, or up to 25 hours in an FFS or FNPT II. A maximum of 5 hours of FNPT II or FFS instrument ground time may be conducted in an FNPT I.

(i) When the applicant has:

(A) completed instrument flight instruction provided by an IRI(A) or an FI(A) holding the privilege to provide training for the IR; or

(B) prior experience of instrument flight time as PIC on aeroplanes, under a rating providing the privileges to fly under IFR and in IMC these hours may be credited towards the 40 hours above up to maximum of 30 hours,

(ii) When the applicant has prior instrument flight time under instruction other than specified in point (a)(i), these hours may be credited towards the required 40 hours up to a maximum of 15 hours.

(iii) In any case, the flying training shall include at least 10 hours of instrument flight time under instruction in an aeroplane at an ATO.

(iv) The total amount of dual instrument instruction shall not be less than 25 hours.