Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1622421
Out today on Skywise:
http://www.caa.co.uk/General-aviation/A ... crolights/
It was always an nppl thing that you needed a microlight class rating, not just log book differences training, to fly microlights on an nppl if you had an ssea class rating. Then you could revalidate both class ratings on cross counting hours by experience as long as at least one of the 12 hours needed was in each class. The announcement today calls that into question:
"For pilots flying training on a UK national licence, including the NPPL(A), flight experience amassed in microlight aircraft with three axis flight controls can be counted towards the flying experience requirements necessary to maintain the SEP and SSEA Class Ratings."
Now i knew about the Sep in national ppls using 3 axis microlight hours but i think the ssea bit is new isnt it? I will have to read it more carefully when i have a minute as I am not sure if it is saying you can now fly microlights on an ssea rating with differences training and then use all 12 hours in microlight to reval the ssea without 1 in an ssea.
I was also very surprised 2 weeks ago or so to be told 2nd hand via a caa email to someone that an Sep rating in a UK ppl can be renewed by prof check in a microlight! I know about reval by experience, but I would have guessed a rating renewal had to be in the class to be renewed, but apparently not!
By Bathman
#1622444
Is there more here?

"The ANO 2016 requires the holder of a UK national licence, including the National Private Pilot Licence (NPPL) with a valid Single Engine Piston or Simple Single Engine Aeroplane Class Rating(s), to complete differences training with an appropriately qualified Instructor prior to flying as pilot in command of a microlight aeroplane"

Now I have always thought that a NPPL (SSEA) holder who wanted to fly microlights had to add an Microlight rating to there NPPL. Is that no longer the case and they can just do differences training and a log book sign off?

Or has this been the case for some time and I have just missed it?
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1622764
I just started to read it to try and understand it but didn't get far.... I stumble and wonder how readable/accurate it is when I almost immediately get to this:
You will need a UK national licence to fly a microlight in UK airspace.

- so what about all the LAPL holders (and FCL PPL-SEP) using microlight differences training?

Then:
The announcement:
UK national licence holders
The ANO 2016 requires the holder of a UK national licence, including the National Private Pilot Licence (NPPL) with a valid Single Engine Piston or Simple Single Engine Aeroplane Class Rating(s), to complete differences training with an appropriately qualified Instructor prior to flying as pilot in command of a microlight aeroplane. This includes three axis microlights as well as weightshift microlights.


What the ANO 2106 says is:
“SSEA” means a simple single engine aeroplane, being a single engine piston aeroplane with a maximum take-off weight authorised of not more than 2,000kg and which is not a microlight aeroplane or a SLMG
and
SSEA class rating:
(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) to (6) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a SSEA class rating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any SSEA with a maximum take-off mass of not more than 2,000kg excluding any such aeroplane which is a SLMG or a microlight aeroplane.

(paragraphs 2 to 6 are the single seat allowance and the differences training allowed for SSEA, none of which is microlight) -my underline and bold.
#1622843
I've asked the CAA for clarification, but I strongly suspect that this is another poorly-worded effort from corporate comms…

SkyWise releases don't normally override the ANO2016! The pertinent ANO requirements for the NPPL are as stated in Schedule 8 Chapter 2 paragraph 4 tables A and B.

There is no '3-axis' restriction for NPPL Class Rating revalidation if the licence includes both SSEA and Microlight Class Ratings, but regardless of how many Microlight hours have been flown, there's still a minimum flight time required on SSEA Class aeroplanes.
#1622927
I have now had a reply from the CAA - there is NO CHANGE to existing ANO regulatory requirements for the NPPL or other pilot licences.

The purpose of the SkyWise release was to remind pilots with SEP / SSEA privileges that they must meet the ANO requirements applicable to their particular licences before flying as PIC in Microlight aeroplanes.

This reminder was published because of certain recent aviation safety occurences.

Microlight instructors conducting conversion differences training need to be aware that they are confirming that the pilot meets the NPPL (Microlight) GST standard - and they could find themselves in front of the beak if the pilot they've trained later has an accident in a Microlight. So the responsibility mustn't be taken lightly.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1622931
nickwilcock wrote:Microlight instructors conducting conversion differences training need to be aware that they are confirming that the pilot meets the NPPL (Microlight) GST standard - and they could find themselves in front of the beak if the pilot they've trained later has an accident in a Microlight. So the responsibility mustn't be taken lightly.

But that is only for Sep- anyone with nppl-ssea not only needs training to microlight gst standard, they actually need a gst and pay and wait for the microlight rating to be added - there is no differences training for microlight on ssea ratings. The release not only infers there is, it claims ANO back up. Embarrassing if the accused produced this for the Beak to peck at.
#1622936
Don't try to be such a clever clogs barrack room lawyer, Irv - the message is that there is NO change to the existing ANO regulatory requirements for Microlight conversion training.

The SkyWise release may well be reviewed following discussions I had earlier - but the most important point is that non-Microlight pilots must meet the relevant ANO criteria before flying as PIC of a Microlight. The CAA are now emphasising this following recent aviation safety occurences.
#1622945
I'm not sure he is trying to be clever at all. To to quote the CAA they said

"The ANO 2016 requires the holder of a UK national licence, including the National Private Pilot Licence (NPPL) with a valid Single Engine Piston or Simple Single Engine Aeroplane Class Rating(s), to complete differences training with an appropriately qualified Instructor prior to flying as pilot in command of a microlight aeroplane"

So either something has either changed or the CAA don't know there own regulation. So which one is it?
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1622969
What a strange comment @nickwilcock !
We (I am including @bathman without actually consulting him) at the grass roots end have to deal with loads of confused pilots at the sharp end - This could easily bring pilots with 12 hours microlight and no ssea experience demanding ssea revals and guess who has to try and sort them out? Not AOPA! Not the CAA either!
I will cancel my aopa auto sub and decide next renewal if attitudes merit renewal
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User avatar
By nickwilcock
#1623013
Irv, sorry if I ruffled your feathers.

I spent a lot of time yesterday attempting to seek clarification from the CAA, which they kindly provided at around 17:00, which concluded:

So the message is no change just a reminder to all.

Hope that helps clarify, grateful if you can pass on as required.


My comments regarding Microlight Instructors responsibilities are correct; pilots with SEP Class Ratings or LAPL SEP privileges who wish to fly Microlight aeroplanes need such mandatory training, which will be to confirm they meet GST standard - whereas NPPL SSEA pilots in the same situation must also receive the training, but then take a GST with a Microlight Examiner to include a Microlight Class Rating in their licence.

SkyWise releases never override ANO2016 regulatory requirements - if they seem to conflict with such then it is invariably worth querying them with the right people at the CAA. Which is what I did. Rushing into posting potentially misleading information first is never a good idea.

All AOPA instructor members, corporate members and committee members receive regular Information Updates; individual members will receive the same via the website or e-newsletter.
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1623548
@oldbiggincfi Affirm, if you mean PPL with SEP rating.... (but also true for LAPL(A)s with SEP privileges)
But I do not believe the CAA Comms department put out the licensing information in the announcement on their own.... I do hope whoever approved the wording can (wo)man up and revise it because it is simply confusing/wrong. For example:
The ANO 2016 requires the …. the National Private Pilot Licence (NPPL) with a …. Simple Single Engine Aeroplane Class Rating(s), to complete differences training with an appropriately qualified Instructor prior to flying as pilot in command of a microlight aeroplane.

Negative... a microlight rating is required.
#1623619
I just wonder how many are flying Microlights with the wrong licence ?

Somebody tell me , is it really challenging to fly a 3 axis microlight after being successful in obtaining a NPPL SSEA ?
Does it really need anther GST ?

NPPL is more US than them (EASA) Can one of our representative bodies make a case ?