Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
Forum rules: Please keep it polite!
User avatar
By kc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553501
I would appreciate any help please.

My licence PPL(A) SEP Land lapsed 28/11/2010.

I have recently retired from work and now wish to get back into some serious time consuming aviation which I have missed.

I am currently taking lessons in a Jabiru microlight (manly because there is a small airfield just down the road which makes things a great deal easier!) I understand that I will have to pass a skills test to become current again, but am totally confused as to what this will mean with regard to my licence. What confuses me and what I would like help with is:

1/ Will I then be the proud owner of a PPL(M) or a NPPL(M) licence, or do I have a choice? (or are they the same thing?)

2/ Will I then be licensed to fly only microlight aircraft (up to MTOW 450kg)?

3/ I shall be looking to buy an aircraft or into an aircraft share but obviously don't know what type/weight that will be yet. So if the aircraft I choose is above 450kg would I have to pass a full on skills test again for a PPL(A) or would it be just a Type Qualification?


I would really appreciate any help you can offer re the three questions above which will all come into play in the near future (and with which I am totally confused!)
Depending on the advice I receive, and in trying to establish the best route back in to aviation, it may have an immediate impact upon my current training.

Many thanks for reading this, and I look forward to any help offered.

Kev
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553513
A PPL(A) with SEP rating allows you to fly microlights once you have completed differences training. Only issue (then) is that flying microlights doesn't contribute to the experience required to re-validate your SEP rating after 2 years, but as you're not sure about what you'll fly anyway, this route is probably the most flexible.
So best route is probably to renew the SEP rating (training followed by a simplified skills test). Then use your current training as the differences training (need a logbook signoff).
Renewing the SEP rating probably means getting a new EASA license (so you need level 6 English).
kc liked this
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553595
Options if the licence you have is not a jaa licence:
1) renew the Sep in an Sep aircaft as above, with only a self declare medical, have microlight differences training to get legal on microlights, and the good news is you can now use three axis microlight hours towards revalidation by experience of an Sep rating in a uk pre jaa licence. The change came in the ANO last year. Advantage: no CAA involvement or CAA fees Sep rating stay current on microlight hours,. disadvantage: you have to do all twelve hours every 2nd year.
2) train and test on microlights as per 4.2(b) of
http://www.nationalprivatepilotslicence ... V%2011.pdf
to get a microlight class rating out into your old ppl. You might have to check with the bmaa that an old uk ppl fits the wording they are using for 4.2, it could be clearer. Advantage: the twelve hours do not all have to be in the final year for revalidation (but at least six do). Getting a new rating added into your existing old ppl is cheaper than getting a "whole" nppl issued. Disadvantage: paying to get new rating issued.

If it is a jaa ppl it will have expired so is a bit more complicated.
kc liked this
User avatar
By kc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553656
WOW! I'm glad I asked!

This makes it a lot clearer, many thanks to both for taking the time to comment and help me on here.

And thank you Irv for shedding some light on the legal aspect.

Both replies have made my way back in to aviation much clearer and I can now get stuck into training knowing the right way forward from my current position .

Again, thank you both. :D
User avatar
By kc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553660
Irv,

regarding your last comment, 'If it is a jaa ppl it will have expired so is a bit more complicated', I've checked my licence which is a JAA Flight Crew Licence issued by UK CAA for PPL(A). It was issued on 14/12/2004 with the Rating Validity Page last entry stating:
SEP LAND valid until 28/11/2010.

Does this complicate things further?

I look forward to and would appreciate any further light you may be able to shed.

Kev
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553672
Ok, choices are (guess which I would do):
1- get a class two EASA mmedical (3 figure £sum, and won't be needed as soon as paperwork done whilst you only fly micros as you will be able to self declare fitness), pass an Sep renewal test on Sep, get that paperwork and be ready to pay the CAA £80+ for that, also fill in an 1104 form with various photo copies, send that in with £70+. Do micro differences training get signature in log book. Then if you only fly micros, pass and pay for a Sep test in Sep every 2 years to revalidate (three figure £sum)
2- do what I said earlier to get a micro rating into a pre jaa ppl - but as you don't actually have one, apply not for a micro rating but for "whole" nppl with micro rating in it for £140+ about £60 more than just rating put into a ppl and no extra paperwork or flying. When you if ever finally want to fly Sep, then renew the jar ppl
User avatar
By kc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553693
Great, got it. I'll go for 'your' one!!

This has been giving me nightmares, (not to mention the many hours studying various aviation websites trying to establish this myself!) so I can't thank you enough for your time in assistance in explaining this to me.

Many thanks,

Kev
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553701
And there was one extension to the more expensive difficult way that I might as well mention to complete the picture. If you went the longer expensive way, which I doubt, you could tick a box on the 1104 form and pay another £38 and get a UK ppl with Sep in it as well, (i.e. have two different licences, one European, one national) then use that 2nd national ppl with differences training to fly micros, and then you can use the micro hours to revalidate the Sep in the 2nd licence (only) every two years. I.e. paying an extra £38 at this stage would also give you the national ppl which can use micro hours for the 12 in final year.
I am thinking of restarting my "day in a pub" ppl masterclass if there is demand, this usually has time to sort out individual questions or situations over coffee breaks or lunch.
kanga liked this
User avatar
By kc
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1553854
Thank you for giving me the full update Irv.

Re your suggested "day in a pub" ppl masterclass, well I owe you at least a pint! But to continue on a more serious note, I for one am interested in finding out as much as I can about the type of flying I'm becoming involved in, whether I remain flying microlights or continue further with type ratings, skills and even aerobatics. So I intend to soak up as much information as I can find (especially as I can now devote a lot of time to it). I have already viewed your airspace vids and rust remover pilot cd amongst many publications you've penned as I've moved back in to aviation, and so I for one would certainly be interested in your masterclass. I'm sure many others would agree that sound, accurate advice and help on tap for private pilots would be indispensable.
I'm also sure that all the valuable information and help you already give, on these forums and elsewhere is greatly appreciated.

Regards,
Kev
Earl Grey liked this
By MikeW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557026
Not sure if I should start a new thread but my query is so close to this one it seems unnecessary duplication! I've also gone through the head banging of reading CAP 804, the new ANO, various EASA documents and am pretty confused. I've even spoken to CAA-FCL by phone.

I have a UK issued CAA license, the lifetime validity one. I have SEP (land), IMC and SLMG ratings in it but all out of validity. The SEP validity ran out almost 10 years ago, the others earlier. I would now like to get in the air again, most likely in an LAA permit a/c but maybe a microlight. Definitely non-EASA anyway.

My first thought was to renew my SEP, just using a self declaration medical, and then maybe do microlight difference training if the need arose. However the CAA man indicated that to do this I would have to go to an ATO, not an RTF, and undertake training at their discretion followed by a proficiency test that they would pre-authorise with the CAA. This all sounds very heavy handed i.e. expensive. To cap that he said I would also be obliged to apply simultaneously for an EASA PPL even though I don't want one, and of course have an EASA medical. More nuisance and £££s!

It looks to me now as though I can make life simpler and cheaper by going to an RTF (somewhat cheaper round here than an ATO) to train for an NPPL(SSEA) for which there are concessions even for my expired rating. It would be refresher training as they thought fit, and a GST. The only drawback I see is that to then add an M rating should I want to is another GST, not just difference training.

Comments on whether I have got this right, or suggestions of a better solution, will be greatly appreciated!
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557029
You can do the Sep renewal at an RF then do differences training for microlight all without reference to the CAA. The good thing is that fixed wing micro flying will count to Sep reval as it is a UK CAA ppl.
Disgraceful if you were told to get an EASA medical and EASA licence just to fly a micro and annex 2 when you had a UK ppl, but if so, you are the second person told this in 3 months to my knowledge.
By MikeW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557080
Thank you Irv. It would appear CAA info completely wrong then! He was emphatic about both the need to go to an ATO and the EASA license. I will have another look at this tonight.
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557085
What he said is not incorrect in itself, just "wrong" in terms of very bad advice. If you did what he said, you would end up flying micros and annex 2 legally. It is just not the only solution, it happens to be one of the worst possible legal solutions for anyone in terms of (your) money., time and effort. It also happens to be the one that gets the CAA the most revenue, although I suppose they didn't try to tell you to get a commercial licence, that would be legal too with micro differences training,, and equally unnecessary.
whilst I would have thought RF, renew Sep, then differences training is the way to go, there are other ways than using an RF and renewing the Sep, probably described earlier in the thread. If you knew you would be flying only a few hours per year say 6 or 7 total, then another way involving new nppl ratings in your ppl might suit better.
By MikeW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1557332
Irv, thanks again, and what you suggest is the best solution matches my thinking on what I was hoping to do but began to think was not valid. However I've been looking at the new Skyway Code, the new 2016 ANO, Part FCL and finally CAP804 which still seems to be widely referenced although theoretically no longer in force. I think I have got the answer to the conundrum but don't ask me to find the relevant page again.

The key seems to be that until April 2018, a UK training organisation that got RTF status before a magic date will be treated as an ATO for instruction for PPL and associated ratings (only). So it seems yes I can do my SEP renewal with an RTF at the moment, but it may no longer be the case after next April. Is that your understanding? So Mr CAA was correct about that but could have been a lot more informative and helpful.

Re the compulsory application for an EASA licence, I think that is plain wrong.

My licence is an A6 size 4 page thing that was reissued in 2008 for some reason and has the ratings in section XII on the back. I think I've read that this is not the current format and it needs changing again, is that right?

Mike