Polite discussion about EASA, the CAA, the ANO and the delights of aviation regulation.
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By Baldrick
#1649811
Major milestone today :D my second logbook. Just one problem though, it’s a Pooley’s logbook with 2 Instrument columns; 1st is ‘Instrument Flying’ and the 2nd is ‘Simulated Instrument Flying ‘
Am I supposed to total both P1 and Put Instrument Flying in the same column?
If not my cunning plan is to re title the columns. :D
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By PaulSS
#1649843
Pretty obviously, the 2nd column is only when you're flying 'under the hood', so you could use that column when you're PUT and doing so (though you don't necessarily have to be PUT to be flying simulated instrument conditions.

Since your 'Capacity' column will dictate whether you're P1/P2/PUT just put any real instrument flying in the 1st column and any simulated in the 2nd. It really only matters for currency purposes anyway.
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By PaulB
#1649847
so If you were IFR but on top of an overcast, that goes in column 1? Or does it only count if you’re in IMC?

What about if the conditions are VMC but you are flying IFR?
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By Dusty_B
#1649850
EASA requires us to log IFR time, not instrument/IMC time. Unfortunately, the RAF and old school CAA considered flight by Sole Reference to the Instruments as Instrument Time, which is how many pilots have continued to log their hours - it far better represents your experience and currency!
Maybe reappropriate the columns for IFR and IMC time?
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By PaulSS
#1649859
Yes, I saw that EASA requirement; what a stupid waste of time. What relevance is an IFR flight plan being filed? In theory, every one of the commercial flights I fly I should log the same block time hours in an IFR column. Needless to say, I don't.

As Dusty correctly surmises, IMC flying actually means something because you're flying by sole reference to instruments which equals skills, practice and currency. Sitting at the hold, having driven around an airport for 20 minutes is irrelevant to any sort of flying, but more especially instrument flying :roll:
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By GrahamB
#1649861
It’s even more ridiculous than that, Paul.

In the UK you could even perfectly legitimately log any flight time below 3000’ and in sight of the surface as IFR, providing you hold an instrument qualification, as no IFR plan has to be filed.
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By Baldrick
#1649865
It’s rather strange that EASA are so prescriptive in their requirements for loging hours for what in my case is a rating that is only issued in the UK, the IR(R).
Thanks for your replies.:D
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By PaulB
#1649869
I assume the same applies to the full IR That is a bit more international.
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By PaulSS
#1649885
In the UK you could even perfectly legitimately log any flight time below 3000’ and in sight of the surface as IFR, providing you hold an instrument qualification, as no IFR plan has to be filed.


I need a head, wall-banging emoticon. Such silly rules have obviously been written by some bureaucrat that has no idea of the difference between IFR and IMC.

I don't know if I satisfactorily gave my answer to Baldrick's question but I think if you're under the hood any time goes in Simulated and if you're in the clag for real then it goes in Instrument Flying. There is no need to differentiate twixt dual and P1 as that will be in a different column.

Today for me was 4:00 P1, 0:30 IMC and 1 autoland ('cos the weather was Carp at destination). Oh, I mustn't forget 4:00 IFR :roll:
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By defcribed
#1649931
Dusty_B wrote:EASA requires us to log IFR time, not instrument/IMC time.


OCAS, you are IFR simply because you decide you are regardless of conditions. No flight plan required. That's (at least most of) the under-the-hood training sorted.

If you are in IMC then you are IFR by definition, because you cannot fly VFR unless you are in VMC.

The only time you are going to struggle to credit under EASA is any under-the-hood time in controlled airspace where you took a VFR clearance. Shouldn't imagine there's much of that?


To answer the original OP, get a different log book which doesn't confuse the matter by having two columns.

I am continuing to log things the old fashioned way, i.e. logging time flown by reference to instruments. However if I consider myself IFR regardless of conditions then I note it in the remarks column.
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By GAFlyer4Fun
#1649944
Last time I needed a new log book I had a look at all the offerings in the shop and saw quite a few variations among the full set of columns so picked the most appropriate for what I intend to do as a PPL.

I did look at the AFE and Pooleys log books, and I settled on the Transair pilot flying logbook which it says is in accordance with JAR-FCL and the ANO (no mention of EASA).

EASA Part FCL has Operating Conditions columns for Night and IFR.
The EASA AMC and GM for Part FCL for that box also says IFR and spells it out Instrument Flight Rules suggesting not a typo for IMC (although PPLs often get IFR/IMC confused).

This Transair log book has columns for Night and Instruments (which seems more sensible than IFR as other have said) and my previous logbook had columns for Night and IMC.
It does not have a column for Simulated but the notes suggest it has separate pages for simulated flight.... and mentions for a flight simulator enter type of aircraft and qualification number of the device. For other devices enter the FNPT1 or FNPTII as appropriate.

So from that my guess is not to use the Simulated column in the Pooleys log book for flying with foggles or under the hood, as some may interpret as being time in an 'approved' simulator!

(The Transair log book also had a column for instructing as I did contemplate doing that one day, and some log books do not have that column.)
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By BehyBill
#1649989
GrahamB wrote:It’s even more ridiculous than that, Paul.

In the UK you could even perfectly legitimately log any flight time below 3000’ and in sight of the surface as IFR, providing you hold an instrument qualification, as no IFR plan has to be filed.



Just to clarify the situation, assuming you are alone in that aircraft outside class A:
- Is it illegal to file IFR FP or airborne IFR FP in VMC without an IR rating?
- Is it illegal to get IFR clearance in VMC without an IR rating?

That is EASA FCL, now the fun begins, in UK class G airspace, I can “self-declare” IFR in VMC without a flight plan (not even radio) and log that as IFR time.
- Is it illegal to do the above without an IR rating?

Replace illegal with "can I log and claim those hours?"

I have this reference:
FCL.600 IR — General
Except as provided in FCL.825, operations under IFR on an aeroplane, heli­copter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction

I am still not talking about IMC rating = IR, FCL PPL vs UK PPL/NPPL or what happen with PIC/PUT or safety pilot combinations :evil:

From this it seems ok to fly IFR in the UK with an IR until Apr2019:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/In ... 16082..pdf

Until 8 April 2019, a Member State may issue an authorisation to a pilot to exercise specified limited privileges to fly aeroplanes under instrument flight rules before the pilot complies with all of the requirements necessary for the issue of an instrument rating in accordance with this Regulation
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By GrahamB
#1650026
BehyBill wrote:Just to clarify the situation, assuming you are alone in that aircraft outside class A:
- Is it illegal to file IFR FP or airborne IFR FP in VMC without an IR rating?
- Is it illegal to get IFR clearance in VMC without an IR rating?

That is EASA FCL, now the fun begins, in UK class G airspace, I can “self-declare” IFR in VMC without a flight plan (not even radio) and log that as IFR time.
- Is it illegal to do the above without an IR rating?

Replace illegal with "can I log and claim those hours?"

I have this reference:
FCL.600 IR — General
Except as provided in FCL.825, operations under IFR on an aeroplane, heli­copter, airship or powered-lift aircraft shall only be conducted by holders of a PPL, CPL, MPL and ATPL with an IR appropriate to the category of aircraft or when undergoing skill testing or dual instruction

I am still not talking about IMC rating = IR, FCL PPL vs UK PPL/NPPL or what happen with PIC/PUT or safety pilot combinations :evil:


You can only be commander of an aircraft under IFR (and therefore log IFR/Instrument time as PIC) with an instrument qualification, full stop. That means an IR, except in the UK where and IMCR or and IR(R) also permit it, subject to their limitations.
BehyBill wrote:From this it seems ok to fly IFR in the UK with an IR until Apr2019:
https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/In ... 16082..pdf

Until 8 April 2019, a Member State may issue an authorisation to a pilot to exercise specified limited privileges to fly aeroplanes under instrument flight rules before the pilot complies with all of the requirements necessary for the issue of an instrument rating in accordance with this Regulation

Do you mean IR, or IR(R)/IMCR?
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