Where have you been? What have you seen?
#1896288
Hello folks,
As a new pilot I'm plotting interesting routes to fly so when I've done enough solo flying to be sure I'm safe for a passenger I'll have somewhere interesting to take them.
I see that from where I fly from there is a nice route to Llanbedr (about an hours easy flight, no zone transits etc).
On SkyDemon there are a lot of danger areas around the airfield.
So I go to their website to get more info. There is no explanation of this, but that isn't my greatest concern.
What I don't get is this: All circuits are 'out to sea' therefore 'inland' is deadside.
Standard overhead join is required, But, 'not below 2000' QFE deadside',
the next line down states "Descend to circuit height".
Circuit height here is 1000' QFE.
So where am I losing 1000'?
If I don't descend deadside then it's not a standard overhead join, is it?
Sorry if this is perfectly obvious and I'm just broadcasting my ignorance but I just don't want to get it wrong and cause any kind of a potential accident...
So, can any of the folk who've been in there explain it for me? Freom searches I see Paul S has been, perhaps he could give me the lowdown.
Thanks,
Tim.
#1896290
I'm not sure how much help this will be to you but I visited in January '20, joined crosswind from the East for 17 descending on the crosswind leg to cross the 35 threshold at 1,000 ft.

It is possible, but unlikely, that I didn't read the procedure first. However the place was deserted, so really it wouldn't have mattered anyway.

I think there was somebody manning the R/T, but with two years elapsed I really can't swear to that.

Have you tried ringing them?

Rob P
#1896320
Thanks for both your replies.
I haven't tried to call them yet, this is a pre-of the-pre-preperation exercise, plotting in SkyDemon etc, ironing out the kinks in my spare time kind of thing...
Followed by some confusion.
But thanks for the replies :D
#1896324
I had planned to go to Llanbedr the other week but had to cancel. So I had briefed it, and assumed that they meant that the OHJ is to begin not below 2000 feet on the QFE, but now that you point it out I agree the text isn't clear. I think that's maybe still what they mean.

I'd be interested to hear what they say.
By Fellsteruk
#1896332
I planned to visit once, didn’t make it due to weather but I was told you can do a standard overhead join but it must not be below 2,000 QFE until you descend dead side.

I was also told that most likely if activity is ongoing to enable the danger zone they likely won’t give PPR.

As an aside…. Caernarfon Just around the corner from llanbedr is just as beautiful, no danger area, a beach and great cafe.

They have a drone for search n rescue which can limit PPR but no more than llanbedr I guess

Either way if your up that end climb to 6,000 and zip over Snowden, lovely on a clear day.
#1896334
@Supercat I'd suggest you posted in the wrong forum. Your question would have been better in General Aviation.
Fellsteruk wrote:I planned to visit once, didn’t make it due to weather but I was told you can do a standard overhead join but it must not be below 2,000 QFE until you descend dead side.

If that's the case it could have been made clearer.

Image
#1896342
Thanks everyone for your replies and advice.
I'm trying to get everything straight early to avoid any aviation faux pas.
So, it looks like I should ask when I call for PPR.
I might also mention they could clarify a little what they mean in their pilot notes too.
I hadn't spotted Caernarfon, I will plog that too! Thanks Fellsteruk.
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1896597
Supercat wrote:From searches I see Paul S has been, perhaps he could give me the lowdown.


Like everyone else, I just made it up as I went along as well! ;-)

From what I could see, this is about noise abatement and them not wanting you to descend below 2000ft while on the land side of the airfield. So I assumed they'd want you to descend on the crosswind leg to the downwind leg. When I went in there was no one on the radio despite advertising for people to fly in for ATC training. There were a couple of aircraft ahead of me but they were on the ground by the time I joined the circuit. So what I did, having come over the hills and cloud at 9000ft, was to join high, stay high, fly the circuit high and just keep descending until I got to where I wanted to touch down (two thirds of the way along 35!).
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#1903284
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Supercat wrote:From searches I see Paul S has been, perhaps he could give me the lowdown.


Like everyone else, I just made it up as I went along as well! ;-)

From what I could see, this is about noise abatement and them not wanting you to descend below 2000ft while on the land side of the airfield. So I assumed they'd want you to descend on the crosswind leg to the downwind leg.


I visited a few weeks ago but after having read this thread. When I briefed, that's what I concluded as well. They had a FISO there at the time. I ended up joining overhead, with another aircraft joining downwind at the same time. I asked the FISO about the rule and "pilot's discretion" was the reply. To integrate, it wasn't really possible for me to delay descending until past the opposite numbers because the aircraft joining was at circuit height and therefore 1000 feet below me from there and out of sight. I started descending a little earlier than stipulated to try to get them in sight.

The school and café were closed and the tower a long distance away. I didn't see any staff to ask about it - in fact I saw nobody at all apart from the occupants of the other aircraft.

It's very nice around there though so I expect I'll visit again.
#1904655
I went last summer and it's a nice place for a day trip. Not much around, but a spectacular walk on the beach. You want a severe CAVOK day - it's probably pretty miserable under a cloud base.

Don't worry much about the instructions - just fly there and join in any reasonably sensible fashion - paying due heed to what anyone else in the air appears to be doing and any preference expressed from the ground. The people on the ground are there to help you but they're not your boss. Lots of airfield websites contain elaborate instructions written by people who think they're being clear and authoritative, and they're usually as clear as mud.

It's always worth the research of a quick look at an airfield's online ramblings, but don't obsess over it. Some places say no overhead joins, and if that's the case you'll want to comply. They'll also show you pictures of elaborate circuit routings that you might fly if you so desired, but just roll your eyes at those and fly an ordinary circuit - avoiding built-up areas where you can. Plenty of places obsess over overhead joins - they're a useful tool if it's busy and/or you're unfamiliar - but if the place is deserted then just slot straight into the circuit from whichever direction you arrive and land - much less noise for the locals than you going round the overhead and then round the circuit.
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#1905176
Just guessing but it it be that the procedures for visual arrivals were formulated in the days of Jindivik and later Gnat/Hawk operations and this might explain why circuit height is 2,000ft and circuits are to be made out to sea. The Hawks in particular used to do PFLs from high level and would spiral down overhead the airfield.
By BoeingBoy
#1907492
Interestingly Llanbedr doesn't feature in either the Civil or Military Air Pilots, so there's no official brief. Therefore the edict to maintain 2000' on the dead side is local advice from the Flying School (but wise advice at that).

The main reason lies in the available terrain clearance and the fact that with any wind coming off the hills turbulence will be a major factor. Not just the normal lumps and bumps, but the possibility of clear air rotors abeam the tops of the peaks (ask me how I know!).

The PPR page has a link to local photos but in essence if you let down on the crosswind leg you'll be heading away from the terrain.

The photo below shows the area from the south of the field.

At the moment there is very little traffic and you're likely to be the only visitor. The school may answer the radio if the AFIS is not in attendance but it's a very simple field to visit, and more than worth it for the scenery. Personally I think it's prettier than Caernarfon.


https://i.imgur.com/ae4CrRz.jpg
Last edited by BoeingBoy on Sat Apr 30, 2022 1:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1908050
Here is some vintage guidance:-
LANDING
'All pilots on arriving at the aerodrome will make at least one complete left handed circuit of the aerodrome before landing and will continue with that circuit until in their opinion landing can be affected without risk of collision'.

Source:
The Air Navigation Order for July 1922 ie 100 years ago!
It was basically referring to operations at Croydon and Lympne however Littlestone, Lympne's 'weather' diversion adjacent to St Mary's Bay railway station on the Romney Hythe & Dymchurch Railway (built on the edge of the airfield in 1925) , could I suppose also be included.
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