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By Flyingfemme
#2033247
Loco parentis wrote:It is said that the ambient temperature at the time of the sinking was around 85 degrees Fahrenheit possibly requiring at least some open hatches and doors on board.

I’m sure a yacht of that calibre was adequately air-conditioned. Maybe the crew quarters were not?
By Big Dex
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2033255
I’m sure that’s correct; but it also likely has a very large glazed opening from the saloon to the cockpit, and even if closed I would be surprised if that could withstand the hydrostatic pressure of even partial immersion. Whilst most monohull yachts (certainly blue water cruisers) are self-righting, with the keel raised it strikes me as probable that this would not happen. Given the beam of this vessel, it may not happen with a full inversion anyway.


All speculation, but the vessel will presumably be raised and the surviving occupants have doubtless already told their story.
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By Sooty25
#2033258
@Big Dex I think you nèed to put the size and displacement into context when coming up with theories. The volume of water needed to sink this, wouldn't just be through heeling and a couple of open hatches.

This isn't some third world, homebuilt dinghy, it's from one of the worlds best designer/builder teams out there, and will have met the highest commercial vessel standards.

You need to dig into the localised weather phenomena reported.
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By defcribed
#2033264
It's not just a couple of open hatches though is it?

If you look at pictures of it, there are large doors at the back of the on-deck structure and a lot of large windows all around that structure. If the vessel ends up on its beam ends and those are open and/or stoved in (one of the survivors mentioned smashing windows) then it will fill up very, very quickly.

There's a fair body of opinion out there in the sailing world that seaworthiness standards in new yachts are not what they used to be. Essentially because 1) sexy looks rather that robust design is what sells, and 2) most yachts only sail in coastal waters in pleasant conditions.
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By Bill McCarthy
#2033271
At anchor there would be odd forces acting on the hull in the middle of the swap winds of a severe waterspout. The anchor chain, together with winds acting on the mast and rigging may have tipped it over and once the innards, with no watertight bulkheads, had been breached it would founder fairly quickly. Don’t know what caused it, but I watched (at a distance)a fairly big yacht heel over in Gibraltar harbour and sink in less than a minute.
By Big Dex
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2033276
Sooty25 wrote:@Big Dex I think you nèed to put the size and displacement into context when coming up with theories. The volume of water needed to sink this, wouldn't just be through heeling and a couple of open hatches.

This isn't some third world, homebuilt dinghy, it's from one of the worlds best designer/builder teams out there, and will have met the highest commercial vessel standards.

You need to dig into the localised weather phenomena reported.


Apologies, I felt my Yachtmaster Ocean, 3 transats (one of which was solo) and experience gained on my (markedly smaller) vessel berthed not that far from Palermo may have given me a modest degree of understanding on the subject. Thanks for your correction, much appreciated.

Given the displacement of the vessel, if laid over on it's side with it's ~6m patio doors open (or failed), do you think that might give rise to some water ingress?
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#2033286
Flyingfemme wrote:
Loco parentis wrote:It is said that the ambient temperature at the time of the sinking was around 85 degrees Fahrenheit possibly requiring at least some open hatches and doors on board.

I’m sure a yacht of that calibre was adequately air-conditioned. Maybe the crew quarters were not?



I agree. That would be the normal expectation on such a prestigious yacht. But if the battery charge state was uncertain and the generators too noisy to be kept running through the night then it would be logical to open doors and windows to enable a quietly cooling night breeze to circulate.

I wonder if there were any crew available on night duty. The findings of the accident investigators will be of the deepest concern to yachties and owners alike. Having amassed a few sea miles my sincere condolences and sympathy go to the families of these unfortunate people.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2033293
Sooty25 wrote:This isn't some third world, homebuilt dinghy, it's from one of the worlds best designer/builder teams out there, and will have met the highest commercial vessel standards..


I think we have been there before innit?

April 1912 I think?
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By defcribed
#2033305
Loco parentis wrote:I agree. That would be the normal expectation on such a prestigious yacht. But if the battery charge state was uncertain and the generators too noisy to be kept running through the night then it would be logical to open doors and windows to enable a quietly cooling night breeze to circulate.


Having spent enough nights berthed in reasonable proximity to big fancy yachts, I know that those on them don't give a flying fig about how much noise their generators are making.
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By Sooty25
#2033309
Big Dex wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:@Big Dex I think you nèed to put the size and displacement into context when coming up with theories. The volume of water needed to sink this, wouldn't just be through heeling and a couple of open hatches.

This isn't some third world, homebuilt dinghy, it's from one of the worlds best designer/builder teams out there, and will have met the highest commercial vessel standards.

You need to dig into the localised weather phenomena reported.


Apologies, I felt my Yachtmaster Ocean, 3 transats (one of which was solo) and experience gained on my (markedly smaller) vessel berthed not that far from Palermo may have given me a modest degree of understanding on the subject. Thanks for your correction, much appreciated.

Given the displacement of the vessel, if laid over on it's side with it's ~6m patio doors open (or failed), do you think that might give rise to some water ingress?


Your first post came across as though you sailed an Enterprise! :D

The forces of nature that would be needed to get this heeled to the point the patio doors are underwater would be immense. And that I think is the issue. Whatever hit this yacht was well beyond anticipated or would ever be designed for.

493GT and 100ft water, this will get salvaged fairly quickly, and that combined with survivor reports may eventually tell what happened.
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By OCB
#2033330
A mate of mine is a commercial airline pilot, but grew up on the family yacht (daddy is still a tax exile).

When I asked him about this one - he said he’d seen the boat, also had his doubts about its ability to genuinely survive extreme - but predictable - weather, and not surprised once it got past the point of failure it happened quickly.

I’m clueless about such stuff, but when it looks more like a fancy gin palace than a sea-faring affair, gotta take care - right?
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By eltonioni
#2033331
Presumably there's not just the wind but there's a low air pressure + sea level surge to contemplate too? We've admired that particular boat in Palma and while it's massive ISTR the main deck isn't that high compared to an equivalent sized motor yacht. Lots of glass, lots of open space, hot night, hatches and doors open... It doesn't take much imagination when all the holes line up in the cheese.
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By classgee
FLYER Club Member (reader)  FLYER Club Member (reader)
#2033335
I suspect this tragedy will be more to do with seamanship, and appropriate preparation and response to bad weather, than the ultimate ability of the boat to deal with it.
The MAIB report will no doubt reveal all in due course, but I suspect the crew were in laid back, fair weather, secure at safe anchorage mindset, rather than paying attention to the severity of the approaching weather and responding appropriately with the vessel prepared to deal with it.
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By OCB
#2033359
classgee wrote:I suspect this tragedy will be more to do with seamanship, and appropriate preparation and response to bad weather, than the ultimate ability of the boat to deal with it.
The MAIB report will no doubt reveal all in due course, but I suspect the crew were in laid back, fair weather, secure at safe anchorage mindset, rather than paying attention to the severity of the approaching weather and responding appropriately with the vessel prepared to deal with it.


Missus watched a series called Below Deck.
https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2342499/

I basically saw 2 types of staff; native boaties + the rest.

As a Scot who spent a lot of time on the west coast, I got used to being around native boaties - you throw them in the water at birth & not only did they float, they'd tack into wind before they could walk.

The other staff I saw on Below Deck were floating hotel staff. Not bad people per se, but definitely lacked those instant/inherent boatie instincts that pre-empted boat incidents, or "all hands" & knew what to do without being told...especially in a life-threatening situation.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2033360
Someone who appeared to be a serious sailor said
Given the weather forecast it should have raised the anchor, shut all hatches etc., turned into wind and dropped the keel


I know nowt about it but I can see the logic....
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