For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By kanga
#1905163
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Germany only became one country ('ish - the Bavarians would dispute it!) in 1870. ...


.. and was significantly fissiparous even then. Albert Einstein was born in Ulm in the Kingdom of Württemberg in 1879; part of the 'German Empire', but that was still a fairly loose collection of individual German-speaking statelets. It was to some extent the Great War which first forged both a sentiment of 'Germanness' and coherent governance of 'Germany'. Ironically, the same War had much the same uniting effect on Canada, Australia and (in 1917) the USA.
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By OCB
#1905202
@kanga and @Flyin'Dutch' - that’s the thing that I can’t get traction on.

Yes, I get the “lots of little kingdoms” thing, and “what’s in a name” WRT Deutschland as a coherent nation - but that ignores the cultural, linguistic and shared history stuffeke that did end up morphing into the famous “blood and soil”, “ein volk, ein Reich” narrative.

I genuinely don’t get that many Germans think they don’t have a “shared cultural and historical background”.

Maybe it’s just me not understanding their history and culture. :scratch:
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By kanga
#1905205
OCB wrote:..

I genuinely don’t get that many Germans think they don’t have a “shared cultural and historical background”.
..


Bismarck, Wilhelm II and then Hitler told them they should have such pan-German sentiments (the last further including all places outside modern or even post-Versailles Germany where German speakers settled in large (although not necessarily local majority) numbers - Memel, Sudetenland, Austria, even Switzerland and the Volga basin). Both the BRD and GDR governments to discourage such thinking after 1945, which discouragement still influences the educational and political ethos. The BRD political settlement deliberately left a great deal of devolved power in the hands of the Länder (as revently seen in differences in Covid precautions).

In German-speaking parts of Switzerland, the patriotic narrative is how, in the Middle Ages, they threw off the yoke of the German-speaking Hapsburg overlords. In my memories of childhood there, the Swiss were very proud of being wholly separated from (then divided) Germany and (their ancient overlords) Austria, and treasured rather than despised their distinct dialict. The Swiss Cantonal system is also very devolved.
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By OCB
#1905208
@kanga - “ca va, ou bien”, as my F-CH mates used to say :thumright:

Can I overlay the Cantonal/Regional/Federal CH model onto DE? I always assumed I couldn’t.

Culturally, zero chance AFAIK that a Zurich Gnome would relate to a Frankfurt banker…but that’s where I’m struggling tbh….
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1905209
OCB wrote:I genuinely don’t get that many Germans think they don’t have a “shared cultural and historical background”.

Maybe it’s just me not understanding their history and culture. :scratch:


Come and live here for a bit.

:D

There is just not the feeling of a nation state, I think a) because they've only been one, of sorts, for a century and a half. And then with major permutations and b) the shame of nazism.
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By OCB
#1905210
@Flyin'Dutch' - I’ve lived in Belgium (with a short bit in CH) for 20 years - indeed it’s a bliddy shame that there is zero interest in their German neighbours culture.

I do recall a WWII era friend of mine from here explaining that “no matter what”, the locals would never help a German registered car that had broken down, and they kept up this “protest” well into the 1990s.
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By kanga
#1905217
OCB wrote: - I’ve lived in Belgium (..) for 20 years - ..there is zero interest in their German neighbours culture.

I do recall a WWII era friend of mine from here explaining that “no matter what”, the locals would never help a German registered car that had broken down, and they kept up this “protest” well into the 1990s.


In the '60s I got a small school leaving scholarship to visit Greece or Italy, after winning a Classics prize. I could just afford to get a very cheap minibus camping tour to Greece, driving all the way from UK and back. One of my teachers, who had been in the Balkans in WW2 liaising with Tito's partisans, warned me not to use German as we drove down through Yugoslavia, as if I was thought to be German I'd be at risk.

On a campsite in Serbia I asked the receptionist at the office, in Russian, if he spoke Russian. A bit, he grudgingly replied. I asked if I could change a traveller's cheque. He said I'd have to go to a bank in Belgrade, with a scowl. After me another camper started speaking German. The reception immediately responded smilingly and helpfully. I waited then switched to German, explained I was British, and asked if he'd understood my question. He instantly beamed, explained that he'd thought I was Russian, and would be delighted to cash my cheque. Everyone had had to do Russian in school, but hated Russians, and particularly hated the way they expected Yugoslavs to be deferentially grateful for their 'liberation'. Equally, every Yugoslav had a cousin Gastarbeiter in West Germany, or had been one, and were very happy to speak German and help Germans, and British were even more welcome :)
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1905234
In 1988 the Dutch beat the Germans in Euro football championship, the first, and until now only time to do so in a major tournament.

The celebrations were extensive and I will never forget the pictures of a German registered Merchant on the road in the NL with a guy standing in the car, torso out of the sun roof shouting in Dutch that he was Dutch not German. I think he survived.

Germans used to go shopping in the Dutch border towns as certain goods were cheaper, and better in the NL, kids clothes, butter, coffee. The prices were in Dutch Guilders Dflbut Germans could pay in Deutsch Mark. The DM was 1.10 Dfl but the exchange rate in shops 1:1. Those Germans complaining were reminded of 'The War'

Mrs FD had reported that she was harassed by Dutch drivers on her trips in th NL to pick me up from EIN Airport. I had ignored that a bit until I was once driving on the way back an got so naffed off that I stopped ahead of them in a 30km zone in-between some guide rails and they couldn't go anywhere and told them in cartermark clear Dutch that he could go and fvk off pdq. Their surprised faces on hearing that, from someone stepping out of a German registered car - priceless.

Brits in Dutch bars were given regularly free drinks by the locals. Think that the innumerable 'stag nights' have put an end to that.

Having said that after our arrival here in Germany we were known as 'The English family' and especially the kids dined out on that for some time. Their German is now so good that they have to explain they aren't German and born here either.

A few years back we went with our 'kegelclub' (Bowling Club) on a break to one of the Dutch Frysian Isles and I wasn't so sure if that was a good plan.

Worries were unfounded, we were as welcome as an Oligarch in Londongrad, money talks the world over....
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1906993
OCB wrote:@kanga - “ca va, ou bien”, as my F-CH mates used to say :thumright:

Can I overlay the Cantonal/Regional/Federal CH model onto DE? I always assumed I couldn’t.

Culturally, zero chance AFAIK that a Zurich Gnome would relate to a Frankfurt banker…but that’s where I’m struggling tbh….


Many years ago I was sitting at a flash wedding reception at the Dorchester where the son of one of our very good friends had just married a tasty Italian millionairess (by virtue of her divorce from a Swiss banker).

Our table was full of crusty Swiss and their wives: While my wife on my left engaged with the only other person under 50, I attempted to engage a rather monosyllabic silver fox on my right .

Me: What part of Switzerland are you from?
Him: Also; Ich wonhe in Zurich:
Me: Oh,I've been to Zurich, lovely place, (jokingly)-the land of the Gnomes! What do you do (for a living)?
Him: (po-faced) I am a Gnome............... :lol:
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By OCB
#1907028
@Korenwolf - lol, don’t know if you know the film “Brazil” from Terry Gilliam, there was a running sub-plot in that was very similar!
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907091
Reading "Kraftwerk: Future Music from Germany" at the moment by Uwe Schutte. (thing it's pronounced Erver) He is clearly a remainer (boo - steady politics) but I am continuing regardless. :lol: (when you realise you were indoctrinated into engineer as a child by your dads taste in music).

Uwe has this to say about Rammstein:

"Perceptions of Germans and German Culture in the UK continue to be dogged by old stereotypes. It is hardly a coincidence that Rammstein are the most commercially successful German act in Britain. Their scheme to peddle silly Teutonic clichés about Germany and satify the prejudices of their fans plays off neatly. Tellingly Rammstein are most popular not despite the fact that the vast majority of their audience don't understand the language they are singing in, but because of it.. It is enough that they turn it into the parodic representation of N***s seen in war films"

"Rammstein play on subversive over-identifcation"

Ooh err.. :lol: just throwing that in there (whilst listening to Du Hast myself :wink: ).

That said Kraftwerk, godfathers of all electronic music and hip hop... With the latter - maybe it should be put back in pandoras box :lol: But had a massive Kraftwerk nostalgia trip this PM. Love it.

Maybe it's just playing on different stereotype of efficiency and coldness:



Like this public service broadcasting song too, something very stereotypically German about it. :lol:

Last edited by StratoTramp on Fri Apr 08, 2022 7:02 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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By OCB
#1907093
@StratoTramp - Rammstein peddle silly clichés to whoever will buy them, they are equal opportunity opportunists.

Just off to create an NFT of that ….

It might not have occurred to many, but Rammstein clearly realise they have a domestic and international fan base - and maybe, just maybe - as artists they weave their artistic skills to captivate both…which actually in my book makes them accomplished and smart artists.

Just throwing that out there…
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1907094
Well I listen to them so they've got me lol

I suppose Kraftwerk and PSB are sort of a naïve optimistic view of what these traits deliver :lol: Order to Chaos. Ying and Yang.

Teutonic Rhythm, edit: Ah embedded video doesn't work: was the London Olympic Opening Ceremony - Industrial revolution (the good bit) not the other dross. Skip to 19:20 (P.S. Let's get hydraulic fracturing, why can't I say **** dammit lol - 500 years of cheap electricity).

The forged rings at the end are quality! (you can stop watching after that- gets a bit commie.) :lol:



Think the music for this was Underworld. Another Kraftwerk influenced group.