For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By avtur3
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886525
A rather delicate subject but I wonder if anyone has experience they could share please?

For a couple of years I have provided services to a business operated by a sole trader. I operate as an employee of my own limited company. My limited company has invoiced the sole trader for the services I provided.

Sadly, and unexpectedly, the sole trader became ill and passed away in a matter of a couple of weeks. At the time of the sole trader's passing I had provided services which hadn't been invoiced. My limited understanding is that the business ceased to exist at the time he passed and all business matters will dealt with by his estate.

Is it likely that an invoice raised after his passing would be recognized by the estate. The services were provided before he passed away, if that is relevant.

Thanks for any information or advice.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886536
As long as the invoice is clear about the services being provided before his death then the estate should process and settle the invoice along with any other debts, but the business died with him as you suggest, so any work came to an end at that point.
TheFarmer liked this
#1886542
Just be aware that depending on the complexity of the finances, the need to dispose of assets (house to sell?) and so on, it can take a long time before you get paid.
The executors may be able to pay you from available funds once they've made a stab at the estate's accounts. But if not you may have to wait.
Hopefully it's being handled by a solicitor, even if there are individuals as executors - they are more likely I think to pay what can be paid before probate is granted. If you have to wait for probate then further be aware that the Probate Service is being very slow at the moment.
My late mother's estate took 18 months to pay some bills - and that was as simple as anything.
T6Harvard liked this
#1886550
As long as your invoice declares the dates/times when your products/services were provided, and you state these to the Executor(s) (with any other evidence/proof of those products/services having been rendered), then you become a creditor of the assets of the Estate and you should make these known to the Executor(s) within a reasonable timescale (usually 90 days I think).

This is one reason why many deaths are posted in local/national newspapers; it denotes the starting date for creditors to put their claim in to the Estate.

Not a lawyer; just my opinion.
Rob
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By avtur3
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886554
The wife of the deceased has stated a strong desire to keep the business going, to do that I presume she would have to set up her own sole trader business. I don't know if there is any practical way this could be facilitated.

There is a fairly strong order book, unfortunately the orders can only be satisfied if I continue to provide my service, there is no one else who has the knowledge and experience of the production process that I have. I had often said that it was a poor position for the business to in to be so reliant on me, but no one really took any notice.

Unfortunately, as there does not appear to be a mechanism to make any further payments to me, I have had to inform the wife that I can no longer provide service to the business, naively I have already provided 3 weeks of service since his passing, in an attempt to 'keep things going'. However the full implication of the passing of a sole trader have only recently been brought home to me, with the realisation that my efforts to help are actually futile, and that the only thing I can do is walk away.

Realistically my departure means there is little future for the business. The sudden loss of the boss has been tragic, but the significance of my input for the business to continue has heaped a whole load of pressure on my shoulders. However I have my own responsibilities to deal with and I can simply not afford to effectively subsidize the business any further.

A timely reminder about keeping one's affairs up to date and to consider all options, however unpalatable that may be.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886571
Avtur wrote:
A timely reminder about keeping one's affairs up to date and to consider all options, however unpalatable that may be.


Ain't that the truth:

Mrs S and I, at the outset of the pandemic when people were dropping like flies in early 2020, dug out our wills to discover they were written 45 years previously.

We re-wrote them in pretty short order............................. :shock: :roll:
#1886573
The work carried out before death should be secure, as the others have said.

The after death situation really depends on your desire to continue, but could also be affected by the contents of the will and the heirs. Is it just the wife that stands to inherit the remains of the business? If she is, then you need to have a conversation with her and hammer out how the future can work, and soon, however hard it is.

The 3 weeks post death work shouldn't necessarily be considered as lost to the old business, but an investment in the new business and can be recovered at a later date, if you stay involved.

Without knowing more about the business, the product, your relationship with both the original owner and the wife, and your desire (ignoring the money) to make it work it is hard to give really definitive advice.

Could you take over the business and incorporate it into your own business?
Form a partnership/ltd company with the wife?

If it is any consolation, I've committed time, effort and materials to a project only to find one of the partners had a pending criminal charge against him. He hadn't even told his business partner until a week before his court hearing, where he promptly got banged up for 4 and a half years. That project has well and truly hit the buffers and God knows if I'll get paid, but it is one of the risks of business.
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By Flying_john
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886718
PeteSpencer wrote:
Avtur wrote:
A timely reminder about keeping one's affairs up to date and to consider all options, however unpalatable that may be.


Ain't that the truth:

Mrs S and I, at the outset of the pandemic when people were dropping like flies in early 2020, dug out our wills to discover they were written 45 years previously.

We re-wrote them in pretty short order............................. :shock: :roll:



Was that becuse your wishes had changed - or that the original wills were deficient in dealing with children growing up, grandchildren arriving etc etc ?

I ask because my own legal beagle was quite insistent that we should write wills that dealt with usual things that happen with growing families, marriages, deaths, births etc, whilst still adopting the KISS principle.
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By rikur_
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886719
avtur3 wrote:Unfortunately, as there does not appear to be a mechanism to make any further payments to me, I have had to inform the wife that I can no longer provide service to the business, naively I have already provided 3 weeks of service since his passing, in an attempt to 'keep things going'.

I might be over simplifying this - but the bit post death actually seems easier to me. You're working for the wife, and she can pay you as and when. Other than potentially cash flow, there shouldn't be any dependency on the estate to pay you for this work.
(Not a lawyer)
#1886722
rikur_ wrote:
avtur3 wrote:Unfortunately, as there does not appear to be a mechanism to make any further payments to me, I have had to inform the wife that I can no longer provide service to the business, naively I have already provided 3 weeks of service since his passing, in an attempt to 'keep things going'.

I might be over simplifying this - but the bit post death actually seems easier to me. You're working for the wife, and she's can pay you as and when. Other than potentially cash flow, there shouldn't be any dependency on the estate to pay you for this work.
(Not a lawyer)


If she is now a sole trader running a business then she can pay you. She'll have to set up bank accounts and stuff in her name and you may need a new contract or order from her, depending on how you like to do things.
Not easy, but it is straightforward. If she hasn't been involved in the business side of things she will have a steep learning curve - but if you can be helpful rather than combative it'll all work out fine.
Obviously it's a tough time for her and the business stuff won't be top priority to say the least. Although in saying that I'm assuming the death has happened relatively recently? I don't think you've given a timescale. If it's been several months for example, then you need to find out if she has set anything up yet for the continuation of the business.
Last edited by lobstaboy on Sat Dec 04, 2021 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1886723
PeteSpencer wrote:@Flying_john

We no longer needed to have the kids looked after by friends etc etc.

It was dead simple : everything left to the other one: if we both croaked together then divided between 2 kids.

Not a cats home , charity, or alma mater in sight …….. :wink:


Then why did you need new wills? Sounds like a bit of easy money for the solicitor to me...
#1886726
PeteSpencer wrote:...
It was dead simple : :wink:..
(My big snip)
That's the way it should be, and if the pun was intended; I agree :wink: .


Everyone should make a will if you have issue (<<< Warning! Legal Term meaning children or other lineal descendants) or assets or liabilities. Prepare a Will preferably done through a solicitor...many offer free services.

The main reason for a valid Will is to ensure that our beloved :? HMRC doesn't take what isn't theirs.

Just my non-legal opinion.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886728
lobstaboy wrote:
PeteSpencer wrote:@Flying_john

We no longer needed to have the kids looked after by friends etc etc.

It was dead simple : everything left to the other one: if we both croaked together then divided between 2 kids.

Not a cats home , charity, or alma mater in sight …….. :wink:


Then why did you need new wills? Sounds like a bit of easy money for the solicitor to me...


Having a will sorted out 'properly' with a solicitor and have a professional executer is well worth the money.

Don't rely on the good will of the person staying behind.

Don't ask how I know. My father died a few months ago......