For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1885952
I'm a bit confused.

Is acknowledging that men and women are different an undesirable attitude?

That seems a bit odd to me.

Rob P
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885954
johnm wrote:It is well known that I’m not a fan of political correctness but sensible use of neutral language serves to emphasise to a degree the importance of getting rid of undesirable attitudes.

So infantile examples of unhelpful language are frankly fatuous.


Unfortunately I think that forcing the use of neutral language (with this being an example) can actually have the reverse effect, with perhaps an unspoken majority who previously had no issue or thought about the language, silently rolling their eyes and thinking negatively WTF??
#1885958
I think the main issue in this case is using a word that has a specific meaning (one who flies) and shoehorning an overwhelming number of cases into that word despite them having no flying role, ability or qualification.

Doubtless we will get used to it, just as the morphing of the word chair (an item of furniture) into a replacement for chairman/woman to please the gender police, is now unremarkable.

Rob P
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By TheFarmer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885961
Out of interest, how are the French dealing with it when everything is either “le” or “la”?

Does everything now have to be “la” or “lu”, to please the feminists and the man haters?
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By nallen
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885971
TheFarmer wrote:Out of interest, how are the French dealing with it when everything is either “le” or “la”?

Does everything now have to be “la” or “lu”, to please the feminists and the man haters?


No, but solutions are being discussed (long article but interesting if you're interested in language):

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/11/inclusive-writing-france-feminism/545048/

Similar debates ongoing in other languages with grammatical gender.
#1885991
A very interesting read @nallen .

Like others here, this latest change strikes me as a bit nutty, but without any doubt when I look back over my life the big picture is that attitudes to many things have changed for the better over that time, and most of those changes seemed pretty nutty at the time.

Perhaps it takes a bit of grit to make a pearl?
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#1885995
Rob P wrote:I'm a bit confused.

Is acknowledging that men and women are different an undesirable attitude?

That seems a bit odd to me.

Rob P


Rob,

I keep saying, it’s not about the men and women, you’re allowed to say men and women are different.

But, if you have airman and airwoman (or some such) what do you call the people who have declared they are neither.

Remember, under the law, you’re not allowed to call them a man or woman, in the same way I’m not allowed to call you a woman.

If you call them airperson, you are affecting their rights by saying they are different, you might as well call them “screaming weirdo” if you do that.

So, the only way out for the RAF is to come up with a word for everyone.

It’s not their fault, it’s what Greta wants, and Greta rules the world now, not you or I.


To put it another way, what would you do about the people who identify as Xid, and will take you to court if you don’t sort it?
#1885998
johnm wrote:It is well known that I’m not a fan of political correctness but sensible use of neutral language serves to emphasise to a degree the importance of getting rid of undesirable attitudes.


@Cessna571 My response was to John's statement above, not a suggestion that a gender neutral term is unwelcome.

My objection is to the degradation of the word aviator. The cook and latrine cleaner (two people hopefully) are vital to the air force, but they patently are not aviators.

Rob P
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#1885999
Remember, under the law, you’re not allowed to call them a man or woman, in the same way I’m not allowed to call you a woman.


Just out of curiosity, what would be my recourse in law if you did refer to me (an ageing gammon!) as a woman?

And should I be offended if you did?

What can a male midwife do in law?
#1886008
Rob P wrote:.. to please the gender police, ..


<linguist nerdery :oops: >

to me, 'gender police' should be only those who insist on the correct use of grammatical gender in languages where it exists (as it used to in Early and Middle English, surviving now only in few places eg personal pronouns). What I've started to notice is that is some such languages with which I'm familiar, some youngsters have become careless of such strict uses in everyday speech, even though they would presumably have had to be careful in written languages in school exams. I first noticed this among some younger francophones in Canada in the '80s, even in (independent) TV/radio broadcasts (Société Radio-Canada, Francophone analogue of Canadian Broadcasting Corporation never lapsed :thumright: ). The effect was most noticeable by youngsters' swallowing the last syllable of adjectives following nouns, so that it was impossible to hear (and therefore unnecessary mentally to compose) the ending agreeing (or failing to agree) with the gender of the noun. I've since noticed the same in young speakers of Italian, Spanish, German, Russian, Greek, .. truly shocking :roll: :wink:

</>

Equally, to me, the phrase 'gender police' in other contexts is like 'woke brigade': a 'straw man' to denigrate unwelcome to some, reasonable and arguably overdue to others, developing usages and attitudes
#1886012
[code][/code]
A4 Pacific wrote:What can a male midwife do in law?


A male midwife is a 'midwife'. It means with-the-woman. The woman being the person giving birth, not the person attending.
And I'm with Prof. Stock and others - if you're not a woman you can't give birth. Which is not the same thing as saying that if you self identify as a woman you can give birth.
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#1886020
kanga wrote:Equally, to me, the phrase 'gender police' in other contexts is... to denigrate unwelcome... developing usages and attitudes


As meanings of long established words can today be completely changed with the stroke of a pen by any passing AVM I have no qualms in using the term 'gender police' in this precise context.

Rob P
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