For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881651
Bill McCarthy wrote:I’d put an air source heat pump in a large greenhouse to capture solar heat energy - anything to bump up that ambient temperature.


Whilst I agree in principle, I suspect that in practice you'd end up with a very cold greenhouse!!

Having a river flowing along one boundary I investigated the possibilities of using it as a heat source. The first limit was that I can only extract 20,000l per day even if I put the cooler water straight back. There was an expected 3 degree drop across the heat pump which equates to a maximum power available of 2.5kW to heat the whole house. (Closed loop systems are of course available)

Of course the idea of a heat pump is that you run it 24/7. Most of the water ones seem to use between 1kW and 2kW so to get that 2,5kW I have to put in say 1kW of electricity - around £4 per day. This would be OK in the summer with solar panels and a battery doing the job. But in winter I can envisage a mahoosive electricity bill. (My usual daily power consumption is about 7-9kWh - covered by solar from about March to October)

It really looks like a scheme dreamt up by non-physicists/non-engineers. The numbers just don't make economic sense.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881665
It really looks like a scheme dreamt up by non-physicists/non-engineers. The numbers just don't make economic sense.


It's not meant to make economic sense, only environmental sense and in a fairly limited context, i.e. reducing CO2 emissions.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881667
johnm wrote:It's not meant to make economic sense, only environmental sense and in a fairly limited context, i.e. reducing CO2 emissions.


If only the electricity while of life CO2 emissions were as low as we’d like to believe…
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881668
VRB_20kt wrote:If only the electricity while of life CO2 emissions were as low as we’d like to believe…


I quite agree, the simple minded approach to greenery makes me very uneasy. Whole life cycle environmental costs, not just CO2 costs, is not easy but we ought to be researching it and understanding it much more.....
#1881670
Whole life costs are pretty well understood. We understand the supply chain to market, the in-use implications, and the waste / recycling options.

For instance, in 2010 we already knew that at least 85% of the homes we'll live in in 2050 had already even built. That makes retrofit an easily viable technical option but consumers aren't really interested in the major upheaval that significant performance improvement entails, even though the technology exists. I'm sure we could all relate to similar in our respective areas of interest.

The trouble is that people, ie consumers, aren't very interested in repurpose/renew/ recycle because they like having shiny new baubles, industry likes selling new baubles, and government likes taxing new baubles.

In a modern democratic society we're left with a couple of viable principal options; either consumers stop buying stuff or we allow industry to provide solutions which mean we don't have to notice, or may even enjoy it. Only the second one is going to happen.
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#1881701
But the new homes are not being built to “good standards” and many do not have space available to make them better. Where are the PVs on every new roof? The rainwater harvesting and use? The underfloor heating fed by heat pumps?
Instead we get cheap Carp with small windows making interiors dingy and lights required all the time. Electric radiators or gas boilers feeding wet radiators. No space to extend, inadequate storage for growing families, totally inadequate parking with nowhere for delivery vans to park. Etc, etc.
Upgrades to existing stock are difficult, requiring planning permission, often refused. Inflated prices for no good reason and cowboy selling/installation. Listed buildings unable to meet current standards. Etc, etc
We need a total rethink but all we get is tinkering round the edges, confrontational planners and systems favouring big corporations and profit over “sustainable” homes for real people. What to do?
johnm, T6Harvard, OCB and 5 others liked this
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By OCB
#1881793
@Flyingfemme

I set my first company up way back in about 89. It sold pretty simple heating controls that smoothed out the high/low peaks and troughs of boilers at the time, with the aim of keeping the boiler running for longer in its higher efficiency range and less in the low efficiency ranges.

I gave up after a couple of years, even though I could happily prove that for some installations the payback would be months - with the added benefit of increased comfort levels. Fitting controllers for free, letting clients "try before they buy" - the allure of cheap energy had next to nobody wanting to invest/take risk in efficiency.

The only exception was public housing stock, where there was a legal requirement at some point to evaluate cost reduction, and implement if it was proven. Better insulation was clearly the first choice, which got awarded to some large players, but then everyone started buying their council houses or they got sold off to "Housing Associations" who didn't have the same incentives.

I don't really care about the failure of the business - but what's interesting is that this is nothing new.

When Carter was in that white painted mansion, he put policies in place that led to a massive push towards energy efficiency and renewables - based off of a strategic energy plan. Ok, that was to reduce reliance on oil coming from the ME, but still.

To quote National Geographic:

https://www.nationalgeographic.org/article/executive-energy-efforts/

"In June 1979, Carter made a symbolic gesture to demonstrate his administration’s commitment to renewable energy. He had thirty-two solar panels added to the roof of the White House to heat water in the building. The solar panels came down in 1986 during the presidency of Ronald Reagan."

That, for me, perfectly emphasises one of the issues. Energy policy relies far too heavily on the whims of local politicians.

Not that I wanted this post to turn into politics, but hey...
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By Mr Bags
#1881796
Bill McCarthy wrote:I’d put an air source heat pump in a large greenhouse to capture solar heat energy - anything to bump up that ambient temperature.


I wish our neighbour would - the noise they make might be low, but with our bedroom windows open at night, the incessant whirring can really grate. It doesn't help that the wall they have fixed the ASHP unit to reflects the sound directly over to us! Sadly our requests to fit an acoustic screen have fallen on deaf ears :(
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881800
Flyingfemme wrote:But the new homes are not being built to “good standards” and many do not have space available to make them better. Where are the PVs on every new roof? The rainwater harvesting and use? The underfloor heating fed by heat pumps?
Instead we get cheap Carp with small windows making interiors dingy and lights required all the time. Electric radiators or gas boilers feeding wet radiators. No space to extend, inadequate storage for growing families, totally inadequate parking with nowhere for delivery vans to park. Etc, etc.
Upgrades to existing stock are difficult, requiring planning permission, often refused. Inflated prices for no good reason and cowboy selling/installation. Listed buildings unable to meet current standards. Etc, etc
We need a total rethink but all we get is tinkering round the edges, confrontational planners and systems favouring big corporations and profit over “sustainable” homes for real people. What to do?


Can't agree with this sweeping statement:

We chose our builder and architect carefully (2015-6) to put 5 designer houses on the one acre footprint of our old heat sieve of a house which was demolished for this purpose.

It is our first and only brand new house

We are well into retirement and decided avoid expense of (untried and expensive) air heat pump technology, ugly solar panels etc, instead going for an ultra efficient gas boiler

We wanted to downsize (to 1/2-2/3 size previous house ) : We have underfloor heating, flash double glazing , cavity and loft insulation so thick you cant find the joists.

Our energy bill is half what it was.We didn't go for 'smart' Nest style controls as I'm never going to want to fiddle with the heating from Bradford, Bristol, Budapest: We just have heatmisers in every room.

This obsession with the latest systems, spreadsheets and eking out the latest fraction of a kilowatt to compare with last year frankly makes me smile.

I just want to sit in my lounge all year round in a Tee shirt, not a capok filled Parka with a hood................

We have four bedrooms , two upstairs with bathroom which we only use when family visit to the extent that we can turn upstairs heating off when unoccupied and still have warm bedrooms rooms from downstairs convection .
We have a double garage , extra parking space on our plot on a small private road 70 metres from the main road which is silent and secure.

Plenty of space for the (daily :lol: ) visit of Amazon-man. We are as happy as sandboys.

As I may have mentioned before; in our mid 70s, we were no longer interested in the expense of buying into saving the planet, instead using the float saved for heat pumps etc to fund an excellent lifestyle/help the kids . Selfish perhaps but with China belching out coal smoke, a clean planet in my (or, sadly even my kids) lifetime is a wishful fairytale, :wink:
Last edited by PeteSpencer on Wed Nov 10, 2021 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1881801
Where we are there are no such developments. Individual houses are shoehorned into back gardens and larger developments are cramped and ugly. I know, I’ve been looking. And don’t get me started on the dog’s breakfast that is the “state of the art” electric heating in our flat. I would love the opportunity to design and build but it isn’t available under £2million!
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By OCB
#1881806
@Flyingfemme and @PeteSpencer - I’m OCB, not ACAS (remember them?)

A gold star developer is just that - gold star.

Local demand for highly energy efficient sustainable housing, which first meets the actual needs of the inhabitants (with a bit of storage space etc) is also a valid point, and I’m sure if we did a fit-gap analysis we’d find that gold star supply was stripped by affordable demand by quite some multiplier.

Not a value judgement, just trying to put some context.

Oh, and if we can get back to practical examples of wot FF lot have done to reduce their utility bills…. :roll:
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By OCB
#1896040
Anyone have experience of EPS cavity wall insulation?

I see latest generation has graphene coating, and with impressive U value/lambda.

I’m less impressed by some other factors…but maybe I’m being too much of a geek….