For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By jerry_atrick
#1872323
Hi All,

Not an airfield this time...

A grade I listed property that id adjacent to ours has been granted planning approval for the erection of a toilet shed to be used for public conveniences. To cut a long story short, they had previous approval to erect the convenience abutting our land, but it was located at the corner of the plot behind some evergreens we had control of, so we were OK with it.

Without seeking approval they decided to move it 5 metres from the approved area and plonk it right in front of our living room window. They didn't consult anyone and when we asked the council why the game permission to an amendment to the planning permission without consulting us, and the council were also not consulted.

So it went back to planning to which we lodged an objection. The planning has been granted and in dismissing the objection, the council seem to have been a bit lazy in assessing the objection. There were a few minor things, but in part, they relied on the statement of support of people, most of which live well over 100 miles from our village. In addition, as part of our objection, we identified what we think are material deficiencies in their heritage statement, including omitting our property as being part of some grant in 1512 from some ecclesiastic. The council deemed it was not sufficient to inform Heritage England, and Heritage England , as a result, has said that the erection of the toilet between us and the building won't break a bond because there is none.

There are a few other deficiencies in their reasoning as well, which are not too material.

We are going to contact Heritage England to get their view on the materiality of the omission, however, that, along with other defects (yes, that we perceive) in the reasoning for dismissing the objection is getting me thinking time to appeal.

So, a quick question.. And I thought I would ask here because planning is discussed a lot in the General Aviation board, what is the best way to get the process going. I will do the research on the law and the formalities, but, does one engage a planning consultant, a planning lawyer, etc.? The said building is a church - so am I wasting my time?

Any advice, tips and pointers greatly appreciated.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872339
If it’s a church that has put the loo in a different place from that expected, then you have 2 avenues to pursue. Planning is one ecclesiastical bureaucracy is another.

The church will be managed by a Parochial Church Council, they will be people who live in the village and can be identified. They would have needed a thing called a faculty from the diocese which is similar to planning permission.

The church will publish the name and contact details of the clergy and they should put you in touch with the PCC, the diocese is likely to have a website and that will allow you to track down the folk who deal with faculties.

A church is expected to be a good neighbour so I’d start there.
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By Sooty25
#1872386
I'm guessing a couple of litres of MOGAS and a box of matches would be a bit obvious?

I don't envy your battle as it is going to be against incompetent/biased planners who won't want to lose face and will avoid accepting responsibility at all cost.
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By nallen
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872424
This might be stating the obvious, but have you politely asked why they have moved it from its original acceptable location?
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By jerry_atrick
#1872477
Yes we did. Apparently it was for drainage, but it is further from the drainage system and there is no benefit to it. It is, however, closer to the side door of the church and they don't have to lay the path so far is about the only reason I can see (not saying it is).
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By eltonioni
#1872492
As planning approval was granted there is no right of appeal for a complainant. That right only exists for a disappointed applicant so that route is out I'm afraid. However, there are some avenues depending on how keep you are and how deep your pockets are.

The planning consent is for what's on the Decision Notice document, not anything else. It may refer to plans, reports, schedules, etc which become part of the consent but anything else is neither here nor there. You will probably be able to find it on the council's planning portal. Ge the decision notice, the scheduled drawings and any reports / docs it includes in the decision notice. Anything else is completely irrelevant.

The route to overturn a decision for a complaint is through a Judicial Review. I doubt that this will be relevant to you but to explain; this is not for the feint hearted because you are asking a judge to find that a decision was made improperly on legal grounds. Planning is, after all, a legal process. Let's assume that the decision is okay, legally and fairly made without any brown envelopes or mentions in Sunday Prayers for the Planning Committee members.

You say that the building is in the wrong place. Check this. Then check again. Get a tape measure out, find a friend who can actually survey and read drawings to help if you need to. Then check it again because what you're going to do next is to report the church to the local authority planning enforcement team. Present them with your evidence.

A few things could happen:

The council might ignore you because they are busily working from home, email is broken, you can't have their mobile number and the planning officers are not allowed to visit outdoor places because of Covid. Yes, seriously, this is a thing with councils at the moment so hopefully yours are a diligent bunch and will respond seriously to your complaint. Oh yes, make it crystal clear that it is a complaint, you have nothing to lose and you can make friends later when they get busy.

They might come back to you and tell you that they have permission to build it in a different place. The only way this is likely to have happened without you knowing is by a procedure known as a Non Material Amendment. That's when the applicant wants to make an inconsequential change, usually to layout, bricks, window position... that sort of thing. NMAs go through with discussion between applicant and planning officer along with payment to the council. The position of an entire building isn't' really a NMA in my opinion. Not knowing the specifics I would very much doubt the building position has been changed with a NMA.

If the church has relied on the holy tape measure and built it in the wrong place it will come out in the wash with the council's planning enforcement section. Then it gets difficult - what are they going to do about it?

If it's a serious error then they have the power to instruct the church to demolish and rebuild in the right place. Personally I would have no hesitation in pushing for this if it matters to you as much as it seems. Ignore the bleats, they own golden palaces and you only want a bog shifting to where it should be.

If the council is weak or busy isolating from the nasty virus - and many are - they might suggest (while you aren't listening) that the church submits another planning application which should be approved. You'll be able to make your representations, one of which is that the decision should be made by the planning committee and not by delegated powers (that's where a planning officer and a councillor make decisions in private which should be non-contentious)

There is an outside chance that a NMA might be suggested but that really is heading towards judicial review territory and I can't see any sane reason to go that way if a building is in the wrong place and neighbours are up in arms about it and the effect on their life.

If you do think that the decision has been made incorrectly you will need a solicitor experienced in planning and probably a planning barrister. Both trades are specialised and many lawyers claim they know about planning when they don't. If you go down this route you will need deep pockets, dedication, time, a pig-headed refusal to take no for an answer and the expectation of ultimately being disappointed, poorer and hating the system more than you did already.

The council won't be doing it because they care about you, they only care about the applicant not doing what the council has allowed them to do - they are there to control everything to their requirements, not to make you happy. Don't worry about kicking off if you don't feel they are listening since they always hold grudges and they hate you anyway so you have nothing to lose because after all, this is a legal process and they are very acutely aware of that, if you get my drift.

Hope that might give a few clues about how it works. Good luck!


PS. Don't talk to the church. They will hate you too, especially if it involves money - their money.
By Boxkite
#1872498
Eltonioni, an important point to note is that the OP seems to say that the new position was approved through an amendment, so there's no point in trying to prove it's out of position.
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By Sooty25
#1872513
VRB_20kt wrote:Please don’t light fires with petrol!!


Well I wouldn't bother trying with diesel, you'll be there all day!
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872514
Sooty25 wrote:
VRB_20kt wrote:Please don’t light fires with petrol!!


Well I wouldn't bother trying with diesel, you'll be there all day!

You may not be there at all if you light it with petrol!! (If you can get any)
By TravellerBob
#1872635
No advice to offer (other than to read what @eltonioni wrote) however I wish you good fortune in getting this ridiculous situation resolved to your satisfaction.

In 2021 it is ludicrous that folk think they are above earthly rules and considerations, but there a people who believe it is so and they need to be put back in their boxes. Find an agnostic or atheist councillor and bend their ear; too many councillors and politicians are also god-botherers.
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By eltonioni
#1872685
Boxkite wrote:Eltonioni, an important point to note is that the OP seems to say that the new position was approved through an amendment, so there's no point in trying to prove it's out of position.

A fair point, I read it on the phone and replied later on the laptop andI obviously missed some context betwixt. The outlines are the same so situation is Sentence #1 and thoughts for progress is Para #3. It's a stinker @jerry_atrick you have my sympathy for a very unsatisfactory situation. I hope you can find some bones in there that might help.
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By jerry_atrick
#1872716
Thanks all (esp. @eltonioni ) for your replies. Much appreciated.

At the end of the day, it is a first world problem, and some leylandii or similar will do the trick.. Shame, as we had a great view to the church..

There are a couple of things in there to mull over and we vaguely know a property lawyer who will surely know a good planning lawyer.. and this seems to be the way to go for some advice before planting the leylandii (or similar).

It is just really annoying at the lack of consideration.. If they had of come to us and said something like, "hey, we need a couple of hundred/thousand pounds to do what we wanted to", we would have been open to kicking in something..

We have suggested this already, but they seem intent of doing what they want to do...