For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1869120
@avtur3 Motorway services are awful, not just for professional drivers moving big stuff. Until a few years did 30k on the UK's motorways per annum, glad I don't have to use them anymore.

Free services on the continent are often little better, the ones where you pay 50 cts are commonly fine.

The economic divide in the UK between those who are working for a living and those who don't has grown considerably over the past decade. I recently found a payslip from the late naughties.

Hourly rate down by 40% in real pounds for the a much increased workload plus the reduction in value due to a decade of inflation, another 25% over the same period.

The next assault on income from work is being lined up in the wings, increase in National Insurance proposed.

Suppose the subsidy for big employers paying their staff as little as possibly needs to come from somewhere.
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By OCB
#1869241
My maternal grandfather, born 1900, got together in solidarity with some other workers around the Glasgow area during and especially after the war to try to better the lot of those coming back, and also those who’d been unceremoniously dumped on the garbage heap as the war ended.

It kinda morphed into a social movement, one offshoot being there were these things that became more and more popular - called “unions” - whose goals included protecting the workers from “the race to the bottom”, ensure that they had humane working conditions (loos included), and when they’d reached the end of the road - they had a liveable pension.

I’m sure many on here will have a knee-jerk reaction against the concept of “unions”, but I’m guessing many on here unwittingly benefitted from the blood/sweat/tears and in some instances lives of those who fought for workers rights BITD.

I’m no Red Clydesider, but I can honestly say my grandfather was.

Sure, there’s plenty to argue against militant lefty ideology- but mainly those who argue against it can afford to….or at least find a loo when they park….
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1869262
Unions were formed to deal with carp employers. In Port Sunlight and Bournville ( and a few other places) they were an alien concept. The focus on cost instead of value is not new and it has always been undesirable from both a social and economic perspective.

A healthy, contented and respected workforce is a productive workforce producing a high quality product at a competitive price. This lesson has been obvious for centuries but most management simply fails to learn and academic business teaching is no help at all.
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By TravellerBob
#1869268
Unions formed, like other cartels, to protect what "skilled workers" (today's BTECs) saw as "threats" to their entitlement. By enforcing membership of the union to work, and membership being dependent upon either "skill" or nepotism, it led to closed-shops where non-unionists were barred or worse.

Thankfully in the 1980s this was all but eradicated, with notable exceptions extant in "aviation" (in the loosest definition of the word to include 'Cabin Crew'), RMT et al.

Other more romantic theories are available.

Perhaps we ought to get back to "Driving Jobs" as this is skating close to politics IMVHO.
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By Miscellaneous
#1869280
@Paultheparaglider maybe that's not the only similarity? :lol:

EDIT: I'm reaching the conclusion I am not the stereo typical bus driver, whatever that may be. Last week a driver I was out with eventually voiced his belief I was the 'Boss' and we were filming an episode of Undercover Boss. I guess he may have assumed the onboard cameras were being used for footage? Yesterday he told a passenger of his suspicion. :lol:
Last edited by Miscellaneous on Wed Sep 08, 2021 9:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By kanga
#1869283
johnm wrote:..

A healthy, contented and respected workforce is a productive workforce producing a high quality product at a competitive price. ..but most management simply fails to learn ..


hope this is accepted as 'sociological' rather than 'political' :oops:

possibly needing a gloss: should that be many (not necessarily most) in management of large old UK* companies ?

*(and maybe US ones, with similar management philosophies or MBA doctrines)

[in many Continental enterprises, notably in Germany, unions seem visibly to contribute positively to workplace harmony, safety and productivity. The late Keef used to tell anecdotes about the differences in management/union mutual attitudes in Ford UK (antagonistic by default) and Ford West Germany (cooperative by default).

In UK, many relatively younger enterprises seem to be more harmonious and productive, with or without unions; often those started by non-traditional new bosses, such as minorities or women]
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By Paultheparaglider
#1869299
kanga wrote:*(and maybe US ones, with similar management philosophies or MBA doctrines)


I know this is going to be, once again, unfashionable here, but there is no such thing as an MBA doctrine. Perhaps things have changed, but when I did mine, we learned about things like the marketing concept where the customer is placed at the heart of a business that wishes to thrive and where the product is the means to that end. We learned about optimisation of resources, and the dangers of suboptimisation. We learned about goal congruence, and the importance of different parts of the organisation all pulling together. There was a focus on rigorous scientific analysis with a strong emphasis on statistics and modelling. There was also the usual Maslow and other organisational structure stuff, business ethics, much dull financial analysis, company law, international taxation, balance sheet management and similar fascinating subject matter. I still have my old textbooks to aid me when I have nights when I have trouble getting to sleep.

What I didn't get on my own course was the module where we future masters of the universe learned the evil ways of putting profits and our own mega bonuses above the interests of just about everything else whilst simultaneously grinning over our glass of vintage Chateau Lafite as we gloried in wrecking the lives of all the minions around us and the companies that we sucked dry.

I did my MBA part time while holding down a full time job. It wasn't easy, and the strong work ethic needed to earn it means that I am - I consider justifiably - very proud of mine.
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By TravellerBob
#1869312
kanga wrote:in many Continental enterprises, notably in Germany, unions seem visibly to contribute positively to workplace harmony, safety and productivity.

That's because English union reps attend meetings to see what in it for "their members" (read 'them'), whereas other nation's union reps attend meetings to see how they can work better together.

The common theme in England, and Australia bizarrely (see BLF et al.), is that these troublesome union reps all seem to come from north of Watford. Ban northerners from "shop steward" roles and higher within the union hierarchy and the problem would disappear in an instant.
kanga wrote:In UK, many relatively younger enterprises seem to be more harmonious and productive, with or without unions; often those started by non-traditional new bosses, such as minorities or women]

Well you nearly got BINGO with that one, but a lot of the noisiest unions prostrate themselves on the altar of women, minorities, LGBTQ++ etc. whilst simultaneously ignoring or side-lining all of the progress made in very short time by way of inclusiveness. There's more to be done. There are better ways to achieve it than shouting.
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By OCB
#1869331
TravellerBob wrote:
kanga wrote:in many Continental enterprises, notably in Germany, unions seem visibly to contribute positively to workplace harmony, safety and productivity.

That's because English union reps attend meetings to see what in it for "their members" (read 'them'), whereas other nation's union reps attend meetings to see how they can work better together.

The common theme in England, and Australia bizarrely (see BLF et al.), is that these troublesome union reps all seem to come from north of Watford. Ban northerners from "shop steward" roles and higher within the union hierarchy and the problem would disappear in an instant.


As a card carrying member of the “north of Watford” brigade (well, born and bred), I could get all offended and snow-flakey.

I’d rather just stick the popcorn in the microwave and see how you respond to:

“Interesting hypothesis on troublesome shop stewards and geographical origin. Can you share your peer reviewed references for your conclusion?”
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By HedgeSparrow
#1869337
Paultheparaglider wrote:...We learned about optimisation of resources, and the dangers of suboptimisation. We learned about goal congruence, and the importance of different parts of the organisation all pulling together. There was a focus on rigorous scientific analysis with a strong emphasis on statistics and modelling. There was also the usual Maslow and other organisational structure stuff...


BINGO! :thumleft:

Sorry Paul, couldn't resist. :eye:

But seriously, it looks very like the subjects covered in the 'Industrial Studies' module in the final year of my engineering batchelor's degree, but did your course cover the dangers of over-optimisation in the supply chain or production scheduling, for instance, as we're finding out nowadays?
By TravellerBob
#1869339
OCB wrote:Can you share your peer reviewed references for your conclusion?

One does not need "peer reviewed references" when one uses The Force. :oops:
By Paultheparaglider
#1869357
HedgeSparrow wrote:
BINGO! :thumleft:

Sorry Paul, couldn't resist. :eye:

But seriously, it looks very like the subjects covered in the 'Industrial Studies' module in the final year of my engineering batchelor's degree, but did your course cover the dangers of over-optimisation in the supply chain or production scheduling, for instance, as we're finding out nowadays?


:lol: We get issued with special dictionaries when we qualify. :wink:

I did my MBA back in the 1980s, and I don't recall supply chain optimising being a specific topic, although production scheduling did come up. I'm sure there have been lots of new buzzwords added since my days.

Anyway, the reason I keep defending MBA courses, and indeed any such business studies, is because I know how much value they add to individuals and organisations. I know it is trendy to denigrate such courses, but it would be a real shame if people were put off undertaking such worthwhile study as a result of populist derision.
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