For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
  • 1
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13
User avatar
By kanga
#1858517
eltonioni wrote:..

Apparently, the CoE is about to formally apologise for having the Jews kicked out...


<history nerd :oops: >

Expulsion of Jews from England [sic] was in 1290, reversed only by Cromwell in 1655. CofE came into being only in 1558

</>
MikeB, Flyingfemme liked this
User avatar
By kanga
#1858528
riverrock wrote:..

The question would be why black and multi-ethnic people are over represented on the England football team? Is it linked back to poverty and aspirations, as you are more likely to be impoverished if not white?


.. aspirations possibly imparted, perhaps unthinkingly, by otherwise 'benevolent' (as they may see themselves) authority figures. I recall Patricia Scotland, the first black woman QC, saying she was told by a careers teacher that she could reasonably aspire to serving on a counter in Woolworths. Obviously that was a few decades ago, but very recently I heard a black Professor of Mathematics being interviewed. He had being playing mathematical puzzle games with his young son from an early age, and the son was top of class in his local Primary School in most subjects including Maths; but a teacher had asked him what he wanted to be when he grew up, and when he replied 'a mathematician' the teacher had effectively told him not to be silly.

The Hamilton Commission report about diversity in motorsport, out today, may also be apposite; "We realise it's not just the motorsport industry that needs to change; we found there are still systemic issues facing young black people at all levels of the education system.":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/57783786

I find it difficult to blame or mock an athletic young black man, impoverished or not, from seeing professional football (even more than other sports) as their best chance to fame and fortune, when the role models there are visible, but distinctly sparse in other potential careers. Analogously, I recall from US in '80s having a black colleague in DoD, a very senior (in Federal Service grade) and academically distinguished mathematician and engineer, telling me his memory of his undergraduate time at an Ivy League university, and both fellow-students and faculty assuming he was on a sports scholarship :?
User avatar
By Propwash
#1858530
The dispersal of ethnic minority people is very unevenly spread throughout the UK, especially England. In some areas like some inner cities they are now a clear majority whilst in most rural areas and the majority of market towns they are barely if at all visible. In fact most parts of England (and the UK as a whole) are entirely monocultural/racial. This disguises to many people living in cities the fact that ethnic communities are, in reality, very much still a small minority nationally. I suspect that is at least part of the problem. In much the same way as wheelchair users still have difficulty accessing many transport hubs and public facilities because their needs were never a consideration when they were designed and built, so many customs, institutional rules and practices in the UK may not feel appropriate to some minorities for the same reason.

This is something of a minefield, because whilst adjustments to permit ease of access to wheelchairs is often difficult and expensive, at least nobody objects to efforts being made to try and solve the problem. That is not true in many cases where accommodations are made to suit minority communities, particularly as the wishes of one are not necessarily shared by another, for example a mixed Caribbean and Muslim population. I once had to chair a community meeting in a largely ethnic minority area of London discussing policing. The demands of some were diametrically opposed by others of a different ethnic background. Many of the minority white residents resented any changes at all. That was over 3 decades ago but I didn't believe then or now that racism was a big factor in those disagreements, but the natural human instinct to preserve identities was. Those never faced with trying to square that circle would probably have a simplistic answer, but I never actually found it. I suspect that we have faced similar situations in the past as waves of new arrivals with their own customs, religions, and wishes, from Romans to Saxons to Normans and beyond have arrived, but they largely solved competing demands by military oppression of minorities. It is far more complicated today. Those who claim to have an easy answer have probably never tried to implement it.

Back to football: the practice of "taking the knee", which receives mixed receptions because some see it as a symbol of a very questionable Marxist political movement, which is where it originated, was adopted by cricket last year too. Even though cricket supporters did not express the same vocal displeasure, this year the ECB have adjusted their message to a "moment of inclusivity" in which the players stand for a moment's silence wearing T-shirts bearing a variety of messages opposing not just racism but homophobia, sexism, ageism, etc etc. Hard to see how anybody can take exception to that message. Perhaps football should follow suit?

PW
User avatar
By kanga
#1858534
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:The fish rots from the head down.
..

Racism is a problem the world over, but the industrial scale of it in the UK, and the open support of it by the political leadership is unique.

...


not unique, even in Europe, unfortunately. Hungary, Poland, Russia now and (at least in my youth there) Switzerland also seem to be pretty bad among some (including currently ruling) politicians.

But in UK we (as, possibly, in those other European nations also) have the further problems of a populist press (who can, however, turn on a sixpence when they sense they may have gone too far even for their perceived readership, as now over the racist abuse of footballers; or as some did when Nadiya Hussein won the Bake-Off show). I do not follow the sports pages, but see images of national papers' front pages (in the BBC site's daily summary); and also Comments on social media threads which turn up unsolicited in my feeds. To me the following easily compared treatments are symptomatic of that press:

- a top-flight white footballer from an impoverished background uses his new wealth (eg from his share of a fat transfer fee) to buy his parents a new nice house and cars, and he is lauded as a good son; a black one does the same, and he is 'shamelessly flaunting his wealth'

- the Duchess of Cambridge appears at a charity public event visibly pregnant, and she is praised for her gracious elegance; the Duchess of Sussex does the same, photographed in an identical pose, and she is 'shamelessly flaunting her bump'.

And this is in the UK national papers' national, ie London-based, editions. I have not observed any comparable tendencies in the Scottish papers' front pages. Perhaps their editors reckon that their readers would not like it.
johnm, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By Bill McCarthy
#1858539
@kanga - May I just temper that a bit - there has been much publicity in the media where black players ( and I mean many of them) are credited with distributing their wealth to very good causes in their home countries.
kanga, johnm liked this
User avatar
By kanga
#1858541
Propwash wrote:.. the practice of "taking the knee", which receives mixed receptions because some see it as a symbol of a very questionable Marxist political movement, which is where it originated, ..


Not as I recall. ISTR it started as a spontaneous individual gesture by one black Major League (American) footballer in the US at one game, in the immediate aftermath of the (clearly video'd and apparently unprovoked) police killing of an unarmed back man and of the refusal of the State's Attorney to prosecute. That player lost his career. The habit then spread to other players and sports in the US, to marches (involving all races) reviving the display of (usually hand-drawn) 'Black Lives Matter' signs; and only then the movement was to some extent 'hijacked' by a more generally political (and, by US standards, 'extreme' left-wing) movement leading in a very few US places to rioting. It did not help that the 'BLM' internet domain names were snaffled by the more extreme political fringes of such activists, which helped their opponents denounce any 'BLM' manifestations as 'Marxist'. Such (to me, essentially irrational) pejorative denunciation has, unfortunately, also spread into related UK political discourse, as has been visible locally here in Gloucestershire: a local MP accused two teenagers (one white, one black, longstanding school friends) of being dangerous leftwingers for trying to organise a peaceful (and safely socially distanced) BLM protest event. He failed to persuade local Councillors to stop the use of a public open space for it, and it all passed perfectly peacefully and safely, with participation from people of all races in an overwhelmingly white area.
Flyin'Dutch', Keveng, akg1486 and 2 others liked this
User avatar
By Flyingfemme
#1858549
@Flyin'Dutch' Please reconsider. Most of us do not come here to hear our own thoughts repeated back. We come here for the wealth of disparate knowledge and experience that is freely available. Sometimes other views are challenging but they should (almost) always be heard. Nuance is difficult online and some may feel "dissed" by replies that could be read several ways - I'm sure it isn't meant that way. People say things in the heat of discourse that would be over in minutes if we were in a bar together but can take hours (or days) on the forum and allow feelings to fester. Stay and keep giving as good as you get.
User avatar
By Propwash
#1858553
Sorry, Kanga, I was referring to the practice in the UK, which was pretty much unknown before last year's events. US social and political goings on have always struck me as polarised and divisive for one reason or another so I actually pay little attention until their ideas spread here.

I know that the BLM movement is a loose colaberation of disparate groups in the US, but the website is pretty clear in its stated objectives. If they are not considered by some here to be both political and extreme then I am surprised. Further more, the public statements, freely available online, of some of its prominent adherents make it clear beyond argument that it is a political movement with aims beyond racial equality (some comments suggest the exact opposite - a role reversal). It is, I suspect, for that reason that some in the UK object to the use of the title and what is now (whatever the exact and largely obscure, to most in the UK, origins), its adopted symbol - taking the knee. Worthy of note is that last year when playing in the UK, the West Indies cricket team, during that pre-match practice of kneeling, also saw fit to go further and give the Black Power salute of a gloved fist in the air. Those with personal knowledge of that movement couldn't support that either.

Equality of treatment of all people is an admirable concept that everybody should support, but I think the approach now taken by the ECB of widening that support to oppose discrimination of all types, not just racial, is the best way forward. It is very difficult to unite by causing division.

PW
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1858592
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I am aware that my views, my posts ruffle feathers, both amongs some of the forumites, some of the moderators. And I have decided that I am not going to shut up about these things which are important to me. I was born only 18 years after a world war which, and the regime which initiated that had caused carnage , tried to exterminate a race and others they found 'undesirable'
...


Hey @Flyin'Dutch' ....

It's not as if you and I have always seen eye to eye (about flying matters at any rate; I suspect our political views aren't too far apart), but I would be incredibly disappointed if you were no longer around.

With all of that in mind I will ask them to lock my account;

Don't do this. I can't believe for a moment that both you and Ian aren't big enough and ugly enough to make it completely unnecessary for you to either leave or take on a different persona.

I know you feel intensely about things, but IMHO now - and even more so in these crazy times - isn't the time to pull away from a community.

Now get your ärse back here and stop buggering about! :cheers:
T6Harvard liked this
By Cessna571
#1858593
Flyingfemme wrote:@Flyin'Dutch' Please reconsider. Most of us do not come here to hear our own thoughts repeated back. We come here for the wealth of disparate knowledge and experience that is freely available. Sometimes other views are challenging but they should (almost) always be heard. Nuance is difficult online and some may feel "dissed" by replies that could be read several ways - I'm sure it isn't meant that way. People say things in the heat of discourse that would be over in minutes if we were in a bar together but can take hours (or days) on the forum and allow feelings to fester. Stay and keep giving as good as you get.


@Flyin’Dutch’

+1
TopCat, T6Harvard liked this
By A4 Pacific
#1858671
Racism is a problem the world over, but the industrial scale of it in the UK, and the open support of it by the political leadership is unique.

I presume the Met Police was absent, either because a decision had been taken that the anarchists would win, or they were still resting from the exhaustion after arresting women at the Sarah Everard vigil.

To suggest that this is all related to a campaign based on xenophobia to win a referendum would be dragging the discussion about this societal problem into politics. That would be churlish especially as it is clear to all that one hasn't got anything to do with the other.

:roll:

No doubt I will berated for 'wanting to depict the UK in a bad light' again, very happy to carry that cross, and be on the right side of history.


Stay or go as you wish. However making deeply pejorative and prejudiced statements such as this and then absenting yourself from defending them is a rather unfortunate look I’m afraid.

I can only hope you have no reason to spend any further time in a country you so clearly now despise.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1858673
A4 Pacific wrote:Stay or go as you wish. However making deeply pejorative and prejudiced statements such as this and then absenting yourself from defending them is a rather unfortunate look I’m afraid.

I see nothing prejudiced about drawing a comparison between the absence of police at the pre-match Wembley horrific violence, and the aggressive policing directed at women at the Sarah Everard vigil.

It's a perfectly valid comparison, and it raises questions that deserve answers.

Pejorative, hell yes, and deservedly so.
kanga, MachFlyer liked this
By A4 Pacific
#1858674
“Prejudice”

preconceived opinion that is not based on reason or actual experience.

Juxtaposing the absence of police inside Wembley (19 police officers were injured that night!) with the (so called) ‘aggressive’ policing directed at women (by female as well as male police officers) at the Sarah Everard vigil during covid lockdown measures, is specious.
Last edited by A4 Pacific on Wed Jul 14, 2021 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1858677
At the Sarah Everard vigil, the police were exonerated. Read the reports - not the media or political hype.
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk ... am-common/

A vigil, with respect and social distancing, became a rally by individuals who were intent and had history on provoking the police,. The police response was bad optics, not perfect, but entirely justified.
A4 Pacific, Rob P liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1858680
We have strayed quite a long way from football, however; there are two issues, general public order and specific COVID 19 restrictions.

Frank noted that MPS were diligent in enforcing COVID restrictions and the report confirms they acted reasonably. However he suggested that they appeared to take little or no action in respect of the public disorder around the football match and that appears to be right from what I’ve seen.

So no it wasn’t in any sense specious it was a reasonable question.
TopCat liked this
  • 1
  • 9
  • 10
  • 11
  • 12
  • 13