[Charles Hunt]

Posh rugby bloke blooodied after breaking up fighting football fans.

[Flyin'Dutch']

The fish rots from the head down.



Where a prime minister is known for racist quotes, it is hardly surprising that people think it's OK to racially abuse others.



Where the Home Secretary thinks it's OK to rubbish those standing against racism.

Nobody should be surprised that 'fans' get on the front page all around the world of the Hindustan Times

Racism is a problem the world over, but the industrial scale of it in the UK, and the open support of it by the political leadership is unique.

I presume the Met Police was absent, either because a decision had been taken that the anarchists would win, or they were still resting from the exhaustion after arresting women at the Sarah Everard vigil.

To suggest that this is all related to a campaign based on xenophobia to win a referendum would be dragging the discussion about this societal problem into politics. That would be churlish especially as it is clear to all that one hasn't got anything to do with the other.



No doubt I will berated for 'wanting to depict the UK in a bad light' again, very happy to carry that cross, and be on the right side of history.

[Cessna571]

You have it about right I’m afraid.

[Paultheparaglider]

Racism is a problem the world over, but the industrial scale of it in the UK, and the open support of it by the political leadership is unique.

I presume the Met Police was absent, either because a decision had been taken that the anarchists would win, or they were still resting from the exhaustion after arresting women at the Sarah Everard vigil.

To suggest that this is all related to a campaign based on xenophobia to win a referendum would be dragging the discussion about this societal problem into politics. That would be churlish especially as it is clear to all that one hasn't got anything to do with the other.



No doubt I will berated for 'wanting to depict the UK in a bad light' again, very happy to carry that cross, and be on the right side of history.

From my own personal experience, the UK is better than many countries. Racism is a complex issue to solve, and is more down to ignorance than anything else. Turning racism into a political issue probably isn't really helpful, and is likely to wake up the mods. It would be a shame to get the debate shut down.

By the way, kudos to you Frank. You even managed to bring religion in to the debate.

[Flyin'Dutch']

@Paultheparaglider

Racism <=> Politics

And the time has come that not being racist, and hoping it will get better, is not enough anymore.

Anti-racism is required.

Speaking of times which have come I have a few difficult decisions to take questions about life, where do I stand and what am I going to do going forward.

I am aware that my views, my posts ruffle feathers, both amongs some of the forumites, some of the moderators. And I have decided that I am not going to shut up about these things which are important to me. I was born only 18 years after a world war which, and the regime which initiated that had caused carnage , tried to exterminate a race and others they found 'undesirable'

Since that time Apartheid has gone, and have we seen the fall of communism in the Eastern bloc. That positivity, ourlook and hope has fueled me for a long time. I am afraid that the resurgence of fascism, extremism religious and political left and right, the intolerance has gotten to me over last few years.

The day after the referendum I shared with some of my best English friends that I thought the referendum marked a black spot in the UK's history and that this was a wrong turn. I knew that a lot was made of the 'vileness' of the EU but this really was about xenophobia. I was reassured by them and they said it was not going to go that way. A few days later 2 Polish blokes were killed, for being Polish.

Since then there has been a progressive slide towards the abyss, culminating in the stuff we see on our screens daily now.

Those 'in power' approve it, and those who address it are accused of wanting to do the country down.

Ian is a very very good friend of mine and has been so for a very long time. Through good times but also when the going was very tough. My postings have at times given him a massive headache and I am sure that some postings were only tolerated as his world view is not very different from mine.

He however has a business to run in which having a rebellious forum is not conducive to an easy life.

I don't want him to have a headache and even less do I want him to have business difficulties due to what I write.

With all of that in mind I will ask them to lock my account; at times of spats with mods I have considered getting all my contributions deleted but when I was a mod I resisted those requests myself as it would make others' posts and contributions meaningless and therefore deleting would disrespect those valuable contributions and the time and effort its posters had afforded it.

I have enjoyed my time on here and will consider generating another account and myself. It has been a place where great friendships have been built and I have learned a lot, both from the posts but also from my experiences as a result of those great friendships. I would have never been to Iceland, gone to the States to get my CPL/IR, become a CRI, done trips in the Maule all across Europe without that knowledge and stimulation.

Thank you Ian for providing the fertile soil, thank you friends (and those non-friends) who allowed me to develop my flying and life skills by being here.

Bye for now.

[Paultheparaglider]

Anti-racism is required.

Maybe. I think probably not. You eliminate prejudice by education more than anything else. Once you start taking a moral highground position, you risk increasing divisions - not eliminating them.

I quite liked @eltonioni 's comment:

"More generally and personally speaking, I've always thought that the best way to not be a filthy racist, is to not be a filthy racist. Sadly there are still bigoted people out there who are deeply prejudiced against folk who aren't like them."

[johnm]

Thuggery and football have been together for decades as others pointed out. However the malaise that I referred to is that the mob are being pandered to rather more in recent times. We saw a pattern in the early 18th century where protest gradually decayed into rioting and religious or racist abuse, religion is no longer so much of an issue (Ireland excepted) but racism is still a problem.

The solutions then and now are political whether the mods like or not

[Rob P]

Bye for now.

NO!

[Paultheparaglider]

With all of that in mind I will ask them to lock my account

I hope you don’t do that, Frank. From my seat, you are a very valuable contributor to this forum.

I think we should be able to discuss politics. I've argued strongly for this in the past without much support. However, unless we all band together to require this, the practical reality is that introducing politics just closes down other important debates that Ian sees fit to allow.

[eltonioni]

Thuggery and football have been together for decades as others pointed out. However the malaise that I referred to is that the mob are being pandered to rather more in recent times. We saw a pattern in the early 18th century where protest gradually decayed into rioting and religious or racist abuse, religion is no longer so much of an issue (Ireland excepted) but racism is still a problem.

The solutions then and now are political whether the mods like or not

Oh, you must mean the corn and tithe laws when ordinary people couldn't feed themselves because of protectionist import bans and church tithes. Maybe you're right, perhaps ordinary people should have kept quiet and not got them repealed.

Apparently, the CoE is about to formally apologise for having the Jews kicked out. Maybe then they will turn their attention to the injustices of having their grain stores bursting while my (and probably your) ancestors foraged for food or maimed themselves to an early death in the new factories.

Looking ahead, I wonder what the reaction will be to the massive pension raid that's on the way triple - locks be beggared. That, plus green belt release in the South plus alongside zero fuel and property taxes in the North should even things up a bit. Expecting there will be lots of yummy mummies and public sector pensioners with homemade signs in Trafalgar Square.

But obvs... other people's racism is a much easier narrative.

Anyway:

[akg1486]

With all of that in mind I will ask them to lock my account; [...] Bye for now.

I've been around this forum since 2005 when it helped me find a flying club for my temporary sojourn in the UK. I've met very few Forumites in person and so consider myself an outsider, but over the years I've started to recognize whose posts should be read with extra care since there's probably a lot of wisdom to be had. Sometimes in a particular area, sometimes on a wide range of topics.

@Flyin'Dutch' is definitely among those Forumites. It would be a great loss to the Forum to lose a valuable member over something that, at its core, should be a really uncontroversial viewpoint in 2021: racism and bigotry are bad and they're a problem in most countries in the world that needs to be dealt with.

I hope you reconsider.

[Propwash]

Racism is a problem the world over, but the industrial scale of it in the UK, and the open support of it by the political leadership is unique.

And as someone who has travelled all over the world in the last 20 years since I retired, and seen some truly awful social attitudes elsewhere, I can testify like PtP that the UK is a lot, lot better in respect of both racial attitudes and social harmony than many other countries. That isn't to deny that we have a problem with racism because we do, (and in both directions), but to suggest that we are even in the same league as some other countries , as you appear do, is preposterous. Perhaps the very fact that it is given so much publicity here, and virtually ignored in other places, is an indictation of how unacceptable it is to millions of people here but not there?

I presume the Met Police was absent, either because a decision had been taken that the anarchists would win, or they were still resting from the exhaustion after arresting women at the Sarah Everard vigil.

It is this sort of comment that tends to make me roll my eyes. The number of police inside a football stadium is not dictated by police but the owners. As they have to pay for their presence they often tend to err on the side of minimal numbers and rely instead on low paid and usually part time stewards. We saw how effective they were at the barriers as they stood by and largely watched as non-ticket holders stormed them. Don't blame the police for that.

Outside the stadium, where police do have responsibility, there were plenty of officers but as ever they were hugely outnumbered. In the Netherlands and elsewhere police use weaponry and tactics either frowned on or not available to police here. The injury count for officers in the UK, particularly London where most large events of disorder take place, is very much linked to that fact.

To suggest that this is all related to a campaign based on xenophobia to win a referendum would be dragging the discussion about this societal problem into politics. That would be churlish especially as it is clear to all that one hasn't got anything to do with the other.

The last sentence is true, so why even mention it?

No doubt I will berated for 'wanting to depict the UK in a bad light' again, very happy to carry that cross, and be on the right side of history.

Mind the splinters on your shoulder, Frank.

All that said, and whilst we rarely agree on social issues, it would be a shame if you flounced off the Forum. An echo chamber is not something that attracts too many people. As long as discourse is polite, debate is healthy.

PW

[skydriller]

Now if a passing alien was to guess which sport was followed by racists, which do you think they would pick?

The chavvy footy lads or tight whitey rugger buggers?

Thats a very interesting question, especially if you look at the actual ethnic make up of the English population as a whole. It may not be the answer you think.

Regards, SD..

[eltonioni]

It may not be the answer you think.

A good point well made. Will await a counterpoint.

[riverrock]

In England and Wales, Black and Multi-ethnic people make up 5.5% of the population, so England rugby team is fairly representative.
So I suggest it's better in every way...

The question would be why black and multi-ethnic people are over represented on the England football team? Is it linked back to poverty and aspirations, as you are more likely to be impoverished if not white?