For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
By Paultheparaglider
#1837484
I think it is worth remembering the risk / cost issue here. We all know that the Government has been making difficult choices trading off public health risk against economic performance. However, it is also important to remember that the highest economic price has generally been paid (and will be for decades to come) by those least at health risk. Those most at risk - older people - are suffering the least financially.

We have now vaccinated the at risk categories, and those of us in those categories now owe it to the people who are going to pay for all of this mess to at least relieve them of as much of that burden as we can as quickly as we can. Vaccine passports will continue to discriminate against those least at risk, and just isn't fair at this point in the game.

Signs are good that the vaccines are going to work well. However, if we higher risk categories don't like the chance that they won't work quite as fully as we all hope, then we don't have to take the risks. I won't personally be going into a busy pub any time soon, but at this point we have a duty to let the economy open up as quickly as possible. I think the Government approach of taking it step by step is a good one because the vaccines may not turn out to be as effective as we hope, and new variants could still give problems, but we still need to get things moving.

I don't think our Government will be stupid enough to introduce these passports for anything other than international travel as they inevitably discriminate against the young who have not had the chance to be vaccinated, against those who can't be vaccinated for medical reasons, and against those who choose not to be vaccinated. Further, I don't think many organisations will introduce them voluntarily. Once they think through all the practicalities and costs involved, together with the policing and liberty issues, combined with the reality of excluding a large part of the market, I doubt we will see many go down this route.

We have asked a lot of the young in this pandemic. It is about time we started showing that we appreciate their sacrifices. The risk / cost scenario has moved on significantly, and we all need to rethink our attitudes to reflect that.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837504
The point about vaccine passports is that if you need one, you must be able to get one.

The vulnerability argument is a difficult one as most sufferers of long Covid are the younger members of society. So it's not as simple as old folks get vaccinated, hospital load reduces, all the young folk can go to the pub again.
By chevvron
#1837521
skydriller wrote:Almost a year ago this idea of a vaccination passports was brought up on a thread possibly now deleted. I respond now as I did then: The minute everyone anywhere can freely get a vaccine on demand, then there is no problem in theory with the idea, though that is unlikely to be the case while govts decide who gets a vaccine and this leads to a two-tier society... Hunger Games anyone?

But why call it a 'passport', it's simply a vaccination certificate like you need to enter countries like the Gambia (yellow fever certificate mandatory)
By A4 Pacific
#1837545
But why call it a 'passport', it's simply a vaccination certificate like you need to enter countries like the Gambia (yellow fever certificate mandatory)


Where’s the equivalence between popping to the pub, and travelling to The Gambia? :lol: :lol: :lol:
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837557
chevvron wrote:But why call it a 'passport', it's simply a vaccination certificate like you need to enter countries like the Gambia (yellow fever certificate mandatory)


And if I need a Yellow fever vaccination I can call up my GP and get one on demand whenever I want. Be sure to tell me when Im able to do this for a C19 vaccination - last time I checked every single government worldwide is deciding who gets to have a vaccination 1st, 2nd, 100th, 10000th and 58043065th... etc..
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837559
A4 Pacific wrote:
Where’s the equivalence between popping to the pub, and travelling to The Gambia? :lol: :lol: :lol:


The risk of spreading pestilence :lol:
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By stevelup
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837587
T67M wrote:I have had the first jab, but I won't accept a "passport" for entry to pubs, shops and other public places to stand alongside a number of friends who can't have the coronavirus vaccine for medical reasons.


You -really- have multiple friends who can't have any of the vaccines? Or you're making something up to make a point?

I strongly believe that people who cannot have the vaccine for whatever reason must not be excluded from any public places in their home country


Sure, if it's an absolutely genuine reason.

and I include religious beliefs into the "cannot" category.


No, sorry, they can sod right off and back again. What a load of tosh.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837592
Paultheparaglider wrote:We have asked a lot of the young in this pandemic.


Unfortunately where I live the young have responded with two fingers. Throughout the past year I've seen crowds of youths gathering on the streets and parties in houses. I don't think it's a coincidence that RCT, Merthyr and Caerphilly have been particularly hard hit.

Then there's this:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56619569

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-56586598

And you say on the one hand that the young don't have any money to spend, but on the other hand that pubs, restaurants, etc, would be better off allowing the youngsters in (possibly excluding the more cautious older folk) rather than excluding the no-money youngsters and catering for the older folk with money to burn? :D

stevelup wrote:
T67M wrote:and I include religious beliefs into the "cannot" category.


No, sorry, they can sod right off and back again. What a load of tosh.


I was going to express this a little more subtly, but I have the same sentiment. Those who believe death and disease are God's Will, and therefore will resist man's attempts at combatting these diseases, have no place putting other people at risk. These are the fanatics who murder people who try and improve the lives of the population.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/three-polio-workers-shot-dead-latest-blow-afghanistans-vaccination/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-42738360
Last edited by Paul_Sengupta on Sat Apr 03, 2021 12:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837607
I wish we didn't keep seeing simplistic scenarios to justify a position that is basically an act of faith or prejudice, not just on this topic either.

We'd all like things to be simple but the world is a complex place and we have to take the time to try and understand the issues when making plans and taking decisions.

Both the B word and Covid have highlighted these issues in spades but I'm not all that optimistic that lessons will be learned...:-(
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By lobstaboy
#1837609
johnm wrote:I wish we didn't keep seeing simplistic scenarios to justify a position that is basically an act of faith or prejudice, not just on this topic either.
-(


Unfortunately that's exactly how politics works.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1837613
If I’m going to need a vaccination certificate to take the grand kids into MacDonalds then so be it .
So long as I don’t have to pay a fortune for it .

I can’t really get exercised about it. I don’t think my civil liberties are being interfered with. :wink:
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