For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1809735
flybymike wrote:Can we abandon face masks?

https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/do- ... -covid-19-


No because the report and the outcome of the trial are at best only loosely related. We have known for ages that face covering probably doesn't do a lot to stop you catching the disease and this study seems to confirm that, however there is a good deal of evidence that wearing a mask helps stop you spreading it which is the key point, because asymptomatic carriers can easily spread it.
kanga, mick w, MikeB and 1 others liked this
#1809736
flybymike wrote:
johnm wrote:I am reminded of a recent remark:

If you want to understand the difference between intelligent and well educated look at Marcus Rashford and Dolly Parton, versus Jacob Rees-Mogg

Come along now John. Marcus and Dolly can’t help it if they’re not intelligent.


I now have doubts as to which group you occupy :twisted:
#1809746
flybymike wrote:
there is a good deal of evidence that wearing a mask helps stop you spreading it


That’ll be the face masks which professor Stadler likened to chucking a ping pong ball into the goal mouth at a football match. :wink:


That analogy suggests that the professor is in the well educated but not intelligent group. I used to call them idiot savants when I was at Cambridge, they knew a lot about a little, but believed they were omniscient. :wink:
#1809782
There are many very well qualified and intelligent scientists out there offering evidence based scientific advice in a context.

That’s why hygiene, distancing and face covering are being recommended.
#1809787
johnm wrote:There are many very well qualified and intelligent scientists out there offering evidence based scientific advice in a context.


Indeed. Unfortunately, there’s a lot of voodoo, homespun wisdom, witchery and asshattery about.


there is a good deal of evidence that wearing a mask helps stop you spreading it..

- johnm


But we do have well qualified and intelligent scientists out there fighting the voodoo, homespun wisdom, witchery and asshattery.

When it comes to masks, it appears there is still little good evidence they prevent the spread of airborne diseases.

- Carl Heneghan professor of evidence-based medicine at the University of Oxford and director of the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine with Tom Jefferson senior associate tutor and honorary research fellow at the Centre for Evidence-Based Medicine University of Oxford


:thumleft:
#1809797
@eltonioni With respect to the good professors, they are I think making a leap possibly too far in making that statement based on the Danish study. Two groups, one masked, one not, showed a statistically insignificant difference in contracting covid. But this doesn't show how the members of each group spread it to others. For that you would need to measure the R rate in separate, matched populations.

Also, from the Danish paper itself https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-6817, because if in doubt check the source:

The findings, however, should not be used to conclude that a recommendation for everyone to wear masks in the community would not be effective in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections, because the trial did not test the role of masks in source control of SARS-CoV-2 infection. During the study period, authorities did not recommend face mask use outside hospital settings and mask use was rare in community settings (22). This means that study participants' exposure was overwhelmingly to persons not wearing masks.


Reduction in release of virus from infected persons into the environment may be the mechanism for mitigation of transmission in communities where mask use is common or mandated, as noted in observational studies. Thus, these findings do not provide data on the effectiveness of widespread mask wearing in the community in reducing SARS-CoV-2 infections.
Charles Hunt, JAFO, johnm liked this
#1809809
Charles Hunt wrote:Indeed, if you obey the mantra 'We can't do that because there is no data to prove that it works.' You will never do anything new.


That’s what the naysayers said about the ducking stool. If they’d had their way thousands of witches would have got away with it.
#1809810
nallen wrote: With respect to the good professors, they are I think making a leap possibly too far in making that statement based on the Danish study.....

They didn’t. They made that statement in general.

As they are professors of evidence based medicine at the university that’s devising what could be the most cost effective working vaccine it seems fair to take them at their literal word without trying to reinterpret it through the medium of modern dance Flyer Forum.
#1809812
@eltonioni

That Spectator article (titled "Landmark Danish study shows face masks have no significant effect") concludes:

This is why large, randomised trials like this most recent Danish study are so important if we want to understand the impact of measures like face masks. Many people have argued that it is too difficult to wait for randomised trials – but Danmask-19 has shown that these kind of studies are more than feasible.

And now that we have properly rigorous scientific research we can rely on, the evidence shows that wearing masks in the community does not significantly reduce the rates of infection.


And I'm saying this ignores the many caveats in the Danish paper, and I'm saying (again) that what the Danish study actually said is:

The recommendation to wear surgical masks to supplement other public health measures did not reduce the SARS-CoV-2 infection rate among wearers [my emphasis] by more than 50% in a community with modest infection rates, some degree of social distancing, and uncommon general mask use.
JAFO liked this
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