For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892532
It is not for me to say they should lose their jobs or be at the receiving end of GMC stick but anybody who either breaks the law or does not stick to the GMC rules can expect to be dealt with accordingly.

Innit?

These things are not black and white and no decisions would be taken just on the evidence of a couple of video clips, there is due process.
#1892533
Let's hold on a cotton pickin minute.

To what ends are these recalcitrants being forced into having a vaccine? Just leave them to it.

We're in the Omicron stage, not the original 'Wuhan Flu'. Vaccines have a rapidly diminishing role in preventing infection and have negligible to zero effect on transmission. This isn't controversial to anyone paying attention.

All we are really left with is protecting the vulnerable in the first person sense. If they don't wish to protect themselves, so be it. The measures employed 2 years ago are laughably ineffective now and holding onto redundant techniques is having the very real effect of emptying hospitals of both patients and staff.

People have to realise that we have to live with this virus now - that's the exit strategy. The longer it takes to realise it and implement normality, the longer the deleterious side-effects will be. There are no other options unless you are a politician or 'expert' with an interest in your reputation and/or popularity.

To use a poor medical metaphor, it's not the cancer that kills you but the morphine that makes you feel better.
#1892536
StratoTramp wrote:I think I'm in 'e' - the "had the initial and first booster but now jog on - 70% reduction in hospitalisation is good enough, it's safe enough lets get back to it" entitled.


I don't think in your case, ST, I would put you in e. However, bearing in mind that you had no problems with the previous jabs and bearing in mind you have a young family, I would put you in an acting somewhat unwisely category.

That said, the points you make about the risk of getting seriously ill strike me as pretty valid. What I think you are missing is that total risk is made up of probability x consequences. Your probability might be low, but the consequences with a young family are high in my own estimation. It is why young people buy life insurance.

There will come a time, possibly fairly soon, when the option is no longer available in your age group. Get it while you can is my advice.
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#1892539
According to the news today, the vast cuts in numbers of routine surgeries done over the past two years mean that trainee surgeons in their last couple of years of training do not have the requisite number of surgeries attended, nor the necessary experience, to qualify. This will exacerbate the shortage of medics we already have and slow the pace of “catchup” in the NHS (and private health services too) for yet more years.
Since cancer and heart disease each kill around 450 people a day in the UK, before these delays and missed diagnoses, the numbers are looking likely to dwarf covid deaths over the next decade.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892546
Flyingfemme wrote:Since cancer and heart disease each kill around 450 people a day in the UK, before these delays and missed diagnoses, the numbers are looking likely to dwarf covid deaths over the next decade.


Yup, sadly so.

Unfortunately the lack of capacity of the health service was pre-pandemic was already so low that every winter 'elective' surgery had to be postponed and a catch up in the rest of the year necessary.

As we know there has been a massive postponement of even the most basic health care provision, including blood tests and cancer diagnostics, which means that at the begin of november about 10% of the UK population was on the waiting list.

This is of course not going to get better with the current situation in the health service.

For a lot of surgical procedures a short post op ITU stay is necessary to look after the recent operated return from theatre.

Those ITU places are now full, in the main with C19 patients.

The options are or reducing the admissions for those with C19, vaccinating and boosters help here well, or capacity needs to be increased dramatically.

Vaccinating and bolstering is a quicker way than building ITUs and training the staff therefore.
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#1892613
eltonioni wrote:Let's hold on a cotton pickin minute.

To what ends are these recalcitrants being forced into having a vaccine? Just leave them to it.

To use a poor medical metaphor, it's not the cancer that kills you but the morphine that makes you feel better.



The un vaxxed getting a hospital/iTu bed when they could be at home with a hot toddy will cause a delay, preventing someone’s cancer being curable, morphine or not.
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892618
Yeah, but then we are on to: What happens if it's lung cancer caused by smoking. Melanoma caused by someone stupidly being in the sun too long. Diabetes from stupidly eating Carp all their life and being fat - It's a Carp argument.

The humane thing to do is to treat people not ask if they deserve it.

Or recruit more ITU specialists and more beds (back to what have they done to prepare for the last two years arguement). Or maybe don't sack 100,000 in April especially with mild omicron now.

The only thing that reduced cancer treatment (reduced detection) over the last two years is the covid first and only policy.
#1892622
StratoTramp wrote:Yeah, but then we are on to: What happens if it's lung cancer caused by smoking. Melanoma caused by someone stupidly being in the sun too long. Diabetes from stupidly eating Carp all their life and being fat - It's a Carp argument.

The humane thing to do is to treat people not ask if they deserve it.

Or recruit more ITU specialists and more beds (back to what have they done to prepare for the last two years arguement). Or maybe don't sack 100,000 in April especially with mild omicron now.


I’m not arguing non treatment of non vaxxers, just that the need for treatment could be removed, simply and safely. Changing lifestyles is a tad more difficult, especially when profits from junk food, tobacco, alcohol and holidays in the sun generate so much profit,
#1892625
Jim Jones wrote:
eltonioni wrote:Let's hold on a cotton pickin minute.

To what ends are these recalcitrants being forced into having a vaccine? Just leave them to it.

To use a poor medical metaphor, it's not the cancer that kills you but the morphine that makes you feel better.



The un vaxxed getting a hospital/iTu bed when they could be at home with a hot toddy will cause a delay, preventing someone’s cancer being curable, morphine or not.


I read that patients with C19 occupy 13% of NHS beds. Also that 6% of ventilator beds are occupied by with C19 patients. And that one in six critical care beds have a patient with C19.

I'm a bit lot fed up of hand waving about numbers, so what are the target numbers before the NHS collapses like last winter, or the winter before and the fifty winters before that?

If we're being asked to sacrifice society the least we can expect is a cogent, fact based argument from the proponents. Then we can discuss whether it's worth it.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892641
I have no idea what the numbers are but the facts are clear for everyone to see. ITUs and hospitals are TOO full for the Health Service to cope with; what else is the reason that there are unprecedented problems in the Health Service with difficulties in access and 'routine' care cancelled and the waiting lists for serious treatments growing?
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By Pete L
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892647
Reasonably rational discussion on Beeb over last couple of days, including Chris Hopson. Significant fraction of patients would be there anyway, COVID or not. Given that flu is almost non existent and other respiratory infections are down, I'm startiing to be in the "ops normal" camp.

That doesn't mean that the NHS doesn't need more doctors and nurses to run a sustainable system for an aging population. It clearly needs to spend more on training but in the medical grades that's not entirely a money problem - like barristers, there was some element of keeping pay high due to scarcity. With nurses my belief is the problem is supply - pay not high enoigh to do yukky jobs for more than a few years.

Whether or not it needs more money in total is a different question.

It's administration is getting better but there was and is a large population of lazy non-clinical staff. Not unexpected, since a humane organization would do the best they could with those who could no longer cope with the front line, but I've met a fair few who are swinging the lead. I've got more sanguine about that over the years since any public service job comes with dealing with a lot of unpleasant behaviour, but a mild reset would release fair chunk of cash. It's true in the private sector too, but they tend to be found out and dealt with faster.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892652
There are too few clinical staff to deal with the amount of clinical work there needs to be done. That is more the problem than the amount of money individuals are getting paid. For sure with the cost of living rising the staff needs more money to cope with that as well but the majority of the problem is that there are just not enough people who can do the various jobs.

I know it sounds like a broken record, but maybe that is because the system is broken.
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