[Keveng]

I bet it was a really white audience. Just like nightclubs will be really white as well. And rugby matches too by the sound of it, although nobody will notice.

Once the vaccine-passport-at-the-door scheme really kicks in it will feel a bit like the USA in the 1950's. It's hard to think of a more idiotic policy and this government has had quite a few recently.

I wonder if the RAH requires their stewards, bar staff and cleaners to have a Covid Passport?

I would suggest that those people number in single digit percentages of a fully packed RAH it would also depend on what the companies policy deems necessary for the FOH staff , Cleaners presumably only come in following the departure of the audience so space and distance.
Can you clarify the white comments ? Are you inferring the the government is deliberately introducing a system to discriminate against non whites while giving everyone in the country the same opportunity to protect themselves irrespective of race, colour or indeed even religion ?

[Mike Tango]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

Take your pick…

[eltonioni]

You appear to be critical, yet you still used your own judgement and went out to packed Royal Albert Hall and Restaurant - Boris would be proud,,,

I have been in packed theatres and restaurants throughout, whenever they’ve been open. The difference is that here in the Cotswolds everybody masks up and keeps their distance. That clearly isn’t happening in London but this morning back in the Cotswolds masks in evidence again.

Most of London has a lower case rate than the Cotswolds. South Ken' is more than 100 points lower than Chippenham. https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details ... -map/cases

But, masks and social distancing is what we're hanging out hats on.

Are you inferring the the government is deliberately introducing a system to discriminate against non whites while giving everyone in the country the same opportunity to protect themselves irrespective of race, colour or indeed even religion ?

No, I am saying that vaccine passports have an inherently racist outcome. White folk get to sit in the theatre stalls, black folk get to clean out the toilet stalls.

Responses like "they should get all vaccinated" doesn't cut it. They aren't for all sorts of reasons, many of them because of the inherent racism they have enjoyed for a lifetime.

[Robin500]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

Also referred to as the 'Johnson' variant, by a certain Captain Hindsight.

[johnm]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

Also referred to as the 'Johnson' variant, by a certain Captain Hindsight.

Well it was certainly his indecision that let it loose in the UK initially

[Keveng]

[quote="eltonioni"

No, I am saying that vaccine passports have an inherently racist outcome. White folk get to sit in the theatre stalls, black folk get to clean out the toilet stalls.

Responses like "they should get all vaccinated" doesn't cut it. They aren't for all sorts of reasons, many of them because of the inherent racism they have enjoyed for a lifetime.[/quote]

Is this not your mantra ? the highlighted text

[eltonioni]

@Keveng Not at all. I think we should all get vaccinated but I'm more in favour of everyone making their own decision. A vaccine passport doesn't prove much at all, it creates division, a two-tier society, is counter-productive because it encourages fraud and bribery, has racist outcomes and excludes people from social and civic activity that they are perfectly entitled and able to enjoy regardless of their vaccination status.

Above all, it negates personal autonomy and responsibility because what a vaccine gives us as a population is the ability for individuals to take measures to protect themselves with the vaccine which they can enhance if they like with self-imposed social distancing or N95 masks. If somebody chooses not to take the vaccine they adopt a personal risk profile and providing that the population has been given enough information to make that decision I support an individual's right not to take a vaccine and accept the downsides to that.

Additionally, it involves the state and unknown actors in aspects of a person's life that the state et al have no good reason to be involved in. It gives licence to the idea that we do not own ourselves as human beings, the state does.

Vaccine passports make people both unequal and subservient. They are the not-so thin end of a large and very ugly wedge.



^^ that's probably less of a mantra and more of a lament.

[flybymike]

Splendid post.

[MikeE]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

India, as I understand it

Regards

Mike

[johnm]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

India, as I understand it

Regards

Mike

That is certainly thought to be where it emerged, but someone then left the door open

[TopCat]

I think we should all get vaccinated but I'm more in favour of everyone making their own decision. A vaccine passport doesn't prove much at all, it creates division, a two-tier society, is counter-productive because it encourages fraud and bribery, has racist outcomes and excludes people from social and civic activity that they are perfectly entitled and able to enjoy regardless of their vaccination status.

Above all, it negates personal autonomy and responsibility because what a vaccine gives us as a population is the ability for individuals to take measures to protect themselves with the vaccine which they can enhance if they like with self-imposed social distancing or N95 masks. If somebody chooses not to take the vaccine they adopt a personal risk profile and providing that the population has been given enough information to make that decision I support an individual's right not to take a vaccine and accept the downsides to that.

Additionally, it involves the state and unknown actors in aspects of a person's life that the state et al have no good reason to be involved in. It gives licence to the idea that we do not own ourselves as human beings, the state does.

Vaccine passports make people both unequal and subservient. They are the not-so thin end of a large and very ugly wedge.

Such fine-sounding words. Freedom and liberty at the expense of all else.

Tell that to the people at the front end of the NHS.

Tell it to the people that can't have vaccinations. Tell it to the people that have compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine doesn't work.

It's straight out of the Daily Telegraph. It sounds great, but it boils down to "I'll do what I damn well like, and to hell with the rest of you."

It also assumes that people's choices affect only themselves, that they are responsible, think through their choices, and actually give a damn, which is a manifestly false assumption.

[johnm]

@eltonioni seems to think vaccine passports are a new and evil imposition. Despite the fact that we discussed and debunked all this about 200 pages ago, I’ll just offer a reminder that I have a COVID one on my smart phone, easier than many apps that most folk already have on their phones and a little book full in my passport wallet which I have had for many years.

There are very few folk who would be excluded since in most families they’ll have a phone even if pretty much on the breadline.

Even if they don’t have the passport app they can still have the vaccine and help themselves and others

[malcolmfrost]

Great Post TC

[johnm]

When I were a lad and we were all getting vaccinated against diphtheria polio and the like it never occurred to anyone to debate the issue. That was because we were being guided firmly by intelligent beings rather than reading and believing drivel on Facebook.

We also had a strong sense of community and selfish outliers were typically shunned rather than admired for “standing up for their rights” because in those days groups sought rights (and accepted responsibilities) rather than individuals.

[eltonioni]

Tell it to the people that can't have vaccinations. Tell it to the people that have compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine doesn't work..

Ah yes, some of the other people who won't have a Covid Passport. Or work, shopping trips, foreign holidays, a trip to the pub...

Thanks for the help in making the case against.