For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1843641
1) With the purchase of 60m 'booster' jabs, is a booster jab (for all vaccines) the same quantity as the original dose. e.g. if the first dose is say 10 units, is the booster 10 units, or only 5 or whatever.

2) Unsurprisingly it has been confirmed that two fully vaccinated people meeting indoors would be incredibly safe, however it is still banned. This is not being 'led by the science' it is unnecessary social control. The whole point of any vaccine is that allows you to do stuff that otherwise might not be permitted and/or sensible. Why not give the benefit to those who have the protection?
#1843648
Charles Hunt wrote:Unsurprisingly it has been confirmed that two fully vaccinated people meeting indoors would be incredibly safe, however it is still banned. This is not being 'led by the science' it is unnecessary social control. The whole point of any vaccine is that allows you to do stuff that otherwise might not be permitted and/or sensible. Why not give the benefit to those who have the protection?


Perhaps it's because the public has shown time and time again that they are unable to follow the science or simple rules.

If you say two vaccinated people can meet indoors then someone will think: "Well if two vaccinated people can meet surely one can meet someone who's not vaccinated" and another will say: "Well, I've got my first jab booked, that's the same."

Then there will be a huge demonstration in Parliament Square because of the unfairness of two vaccinated people being allowed to meet while those who have chosen not to be vaccinated due to being incurably stupid are not allowed to meet.

Social control? Yes. Unnecessary? Unfortunately not.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843668
There is talk here in Germanskiland to allow those vaccinated to do more than the unvaccinated; lots of debate, as you would expect.

In the NL they have opened up a lot of stuff especially the outdoors as they have realised that it is better to allow folks to go outside and or meet up there rather than 'forcing' them underground i.e. beyond closed doors (where there is no enforcable action possible)

Daily new cases in Germany still in the terrible league. Vaccinating arate improving

https://www.statista.com/statistics/119 ... r-germany/

For those interested have a look at the graph and guess when GPs were starting with vaccinating, and we are now as GPs getting about twice as much per week as when we started. Overall about 30% of people have had their first jab, I guestimate in my practice we are closer to 40% as I positively encourage those eligible for AZ to have it, and do extra vaccinating surgeries for those over and above the extra time spent on vaccinating Bionteq. We should also have had Johnson & Johnson next week but due to the distribution shambles that is not happening yet.

I have been explaining to a lot of Germans the essence of 'Not being able to organise a piss-up in a brewery'
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch' on Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1843672
JAFO wrote:
Charles Hunt wrote:Unsurprisingly it has been confirmed that two fully vaccinated people meeting indoors would be incredibly safe, however it is still banned. This is not being 'led by the science' it is unnecessary social control. The whole point of any vaccine is that allows you to do stuff that otherwise might not be permitted and/or sensible. Why not give the benefit to those who have the protection?


Perhaps it's because the public has shown time and time again that they are unable to follow the science or simple rules.

If you say two vaccinated people can meet indoors then someone will think: "Well if two vaccinated people can meet surely one can meet someone who's not vaccinated" and another will say: "Well, I've got my first jab booked, that's the same."

Then there will be a huge demonstration in Parliament Square because of the unfairness of two vaccinated people being allowed to meet while those who have chosen not to be vaccinated due to being incurably stupid are not allowed to meet.

Social control? Yes. Unnecessary? Unfortunately not.


That IS the science though JAFO, no rules are required, which is the entire point of vaccines. If somebody chooses to be unvaccinated that is their shout, why would you care, you're vaccinated.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843679
eltonioni wrote:
That IS the science though JAFO, no rules are required, which is the entire point of vaccines. If somebody chooses to be unvaccinated that is their shout, why would you care, you're vaccinated.


Not quite.

We don't require people to wear seatbelts and helmets to protect the rest of the population but the hard of thinking from themselves, and society for the societal costs of treating and managing avoidable damage.

If we get on top of this pandemic with voluntary vaccinating then I am all for just leaving it voluntary, but should we not get there where we need to be then nudging by making things available to those vaccinated would not be a bad management tool, and ultimately if the rate remains too low then vaccinating may need to get some form of compulsion.

I think we are a long way off that point (of having to make things compulsory)
Last edited by Flyin'Dutch' on Thu Apr 29, 2021 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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#1843685
@Flyin'Dutch' thats an ethics debate though FD. I'm a libertarian so you know where I would stand on it now that (in the UK at least) we are past the point of scientific risk to the masses. I'd also refer back to the points I made the other day that lockdowns have been an abject failure with a myriad of known and as yet unknown consequences. Your minimal / zero risk approach as a medic is also understandable but we ultimately we live in a dynamic world, not Logan's Run.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843686
I commented on your post re-the lockdowns and clearly we do have a different view on that.

Having experience in both direct patient care and in roles which require a public health point of view I am very much aware that there are differences; so contrary to others I may have more than arm-chair experience.
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#1843692
eltonioni wrote:
That IS the science though JAFO, no rules are required, which is the entire point of vaccines. If somebody chooses to be unvaccinated that is their shout, why would you care, you're vaccinated.

If I can't get my cancer treated because the hospital is full of unvaccinated Covid patients, then I might very well care!!
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#1843693
29 April BBC Europe summary:

"German Interior Minister Horst Seehofer is considering improved police protection for critical locations because of recent attacks by protesters against Covid measures. The RKI public health institute was targeted by arsonists and journalists have been attacked during protests. Intelligence officials say they’re now watching some elements of the Querdenker (lateral thinkers) protest movement.

Turkey goes under its first long lockdown later today, with the highest infection rates in Europe. For the next 17 days intercity travel will be halted without official approval, Turks will be barred from going outdoors for a good reason and alcohol sales will be limited. Read more on the lockdown here.

In France, President Emmanuel Macron will give updated details tomorrow of his plan for a “gradual and phased exit” from lockdown restrictions. Daily cases numbers have fallen below 30,000 but intensive care cases are still high, at 5,879.

Dutch ministers will decide today if and how they’ll allow an audience of 3,500 to watch next month’s Eurovision Song Contest in Rotterdam. There are three televised shows and even more that aren’t televised, and the ministers have to work out if they can be held safely by letting in the public.

European plane-making giant Airbus has returned to profit in the first three months of 2021 – up €362m. But Chief Executive Guillaume Faury warns the pandemic crisis isn’t yet over and the market remains uncertain. German airline Lufthansa has reported a €1bn loss - but that’s better than the first quarter of 2020."
#1843737
malcolmfrost wrote:
eltonioni wrote:
That IS the science though JAFO, no rules are required, which is the entire point of vaccines. If somebody chooses to be unvaccinated that is their shout, why would you care, you're vaccinated.

If I can't get my cancer treated because the hospital is full of unvaccinated Covid patients, then I might very well care!!


Funny you should mention that because hospitals aren't full of unvaccinated Covid patients (<2%), but reported yesterday...

Cancer services are "no longer safe" as there are too few medics to cope with a backlog of patients waiting for scans and X-rays since the pandemic...

... The number of patients facing long waits for tests such as MRI scans, ultrasounds and gastroscopies has risen 10-fold in the past year, with 327,663 patients waiting at least six weeks, up from 29,832 a year ago.

...In numbers: How Covid impacted NHS treatment in 2020
3 million people in the UK missed cancer screenings as a result of coronavirus
2 million patients waited more than 18 weeks for routine hospital treatment
1 in 10 mental health patients has been waiting six months for help
50 per cent drop in heart attack A&E attendances
38 per cent drop in emergency heart surgery in London in the second half of March, due to worried patients
49.6 per cent of Britons reported high levels of anxiety
35 per cent of carers provided more care as a result of local services reducing or closing


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/0 ... d-backlog/
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843797
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
flybymike wrote:^^^ The price of lockdowns and project fear.


Project fear turned out to be, they were right on every bit they warned for.


Quite right. And it would have been enormously worse without lockdowns. At worst, I think hospital occupancy was about 45% Covid patients in the UK.

Without lockdowns and project fear we would have been like India, and the waiting lists for other treatments hugely more than they now are.

How people can be in such denial as not to realise what it would have been like if the virus had been allowed to run rampant, as in Brazil (and, note that herd immunity was not achieved in Manaus) just boggles my mind.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843817
With what is going on in India right now, despite the high double jab UK vaccination levels we are by no means out of the wood yet:

Lockdown should continue right up to the wire with a close eye on possible further restrictions.

I can't believe that Macron with his failed vaccination programme is keeping up the political posturing................... :wink:
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1843874
JAFO wrote:there will be a huge demonstration in Parliament Square because of the unfairness of two vaccinated people being allowed to meet while those who have chosen not to be vaccinated due to being incurably stupid are not allowed to meet.


Ive highlighted the important bit of your post there.
Right now governments decide who gets vaccinated and when, its not an individual choice. Right up until the time that every single person that wants to be vaccinated can be vaccinated on demand, I will be one of those demonstrating. You cannot allow a "government chosen few" to have more rights than anyone else in a general population. Im fully aware that this isnt logical, yet quite frankly how much that has happened wrt government guidance, rules and laws over the last year has been logical?

FTAOD, Id love to get vaccinated here in France, but my age and good health means this isnt likely to happen for quite some time.

Regards, SD..
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