For help, advice and discussion about stuff not related to aviation. Play nice: no religion, no politics and no axe grinding please.
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#1892413
eltonioni wrote:Haven't posted one of these for a few weeks but the sitrep is exactly the same. All the mask mandates, lockdowns, curfews, closing nightclubs, etc aren't helping Wales, NI and Scotland despite having had them in place for months.

Cases per 100k population as of 2 January 2021:
Northern Ireland 2,8532
Wales 2,5782
Scotland 2,0802
England 1,7871

The oppressive authoritarian anti-social and unnecessary measures are actually increasing case numbers and consequent deaths.


@eltonioni - as no-one was in lockdown as far as I'm aware during the week or two prior to these figures, what were the differences in mask mandates between the four nations at that point?

Hadn't Plan B roughly aligned England with the other nations wrt masks and wfh?
#1892421
I hope we are having a very careful rethink centrally about how we move forward. The virus has mutated, but the general approach to presenting and controlling things has remained mostly static.

As an example, when you have a very fast spreading variant like omicron, the metric of reporting hospital cases with covid as opposed to due to covid becomes a much more important distinction. At a time of the year when hospital admissions naturally rises, it can present a very distorted picture of the overall pandemic situation.

At the present time I'm losing faith in the numbers as presented because I don't believe they present a reasonable picture. Clearly, case numbers are skyrocketing, and hospital admissions are rising, but the number in ventilation beds is remaining static. If the proportion of admissions with rather than due to covid is increasing considerably, then we should know this to get a fair picture.

I made the point above about the importance of a strong central message, but to be effective that message needs to remain credible. As a further example, the concept of vaccine passports arose when we thought we could achieve herd immunity, and that vaccinees would not be able to transmit the virus. That has changed with delta, and almost certainly even more so with omicron.

Further, much as I have been consistently a strong advocate of masks, I would like to see what impact this much more transmissible variant has on mask efficacy. Without knowing this, it is hard to assess whether some change is needed whether that be to mandate better masks or simply carry on with the surgical masks which are presumably far less effective now.

In short, what was relevant in 2020 isn't necessarily relevant in 2022, but little has changed in how we report and control this pandemic. That cannot be reasonable.
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892465
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eltonioni wrote:No exceptions should be made at all. Everyone should be free to choose whether to have the vaccine or not, without any sanction. It's perfectly clear now that the vaccine can only be used for personal and not 3rd party protection.


Yep old times! No new normal!

I think the NHS thing like the pingdemic is a good example of where our response to the virus has done more harm / will do more harm than the virus. Especially with omicron now.
#1892474
The ultimate sanction on the unvaccinated: in Québec, they are not to be allowed to buy liquor or cannabis :? :)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59915459
#1892489
kanga wrote:The ultimate sanction on the unvaccinated: in Québec, they are not to be allowed to buy liquor or cannabis :? :)


I have found the whole carrot / stick thing fascinating when it comes to encouraging vaccination uptake.

Throughout most of last year, Hong Kong went down the carrot route. There were lotteries for free apartments, gold bar and cash giveaways, and a whole multitude of smaller incentives. Even then, take up has been poor, especially amongst the older higher risk categories. Vaccines had to be given away to other countries, and several vaccination centres had to close down due to massive underutilisation.

Recently, the government changed the approach to the stick. It has been announced that after the Chinese New Year at the beginning of February nobody will be allowed into restaurants without proof of vaccination. Oldies in HK love their dim sum and it is a major aspect of socialising for the retired.

Now, the government is receiving complaints left, right and centre that there aren't enough vaccination centres. Queuing for hours is not unusual. Demand has shot right up.

I guess you just need to find the right trigger.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892510
Paultheparaglider wrote:I guess you just need to find the right trigger.


Indeed.

Amongst those not vaccinated I discern a number of sub-groups (no doubt incomplete and deemed unjust by some):

a) anxious people
b) the misinformed
c) the 'haven't had time yet
d) those waiting for a vaccine not marketed yet
e) the entitled
f) hard line anti-vaccers - zealots

Informed discussion with those in groups a) to d) can and should be had, carrot and stick may be helpful.

e) and f) will not respond to any measure, I think not even a mandate, so let's not go there.
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#1892523
@Flyin'Dutch' - informed discussion rarely sways those who have already made a decision based on emotion.

Even though they may have justified that emotional decision with, what appears to be, rational argument, I would suspect that a large majority of those in groups a) to f) would not change their mind for this reason.

This is not a judgement or a criticism, it is how we all operate, whether we admit it or not.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892524
JAFO wrote:@Flyin'Dutch' - informed discussion rarely sways those who have already made a decision based on emotion.

Even though they may have justified that emotional decision with, what appears to be, rational argument, I would suspect that a large majority of those in groups a) to f) would not change their mind for this reason.

This is not a judgement or a criticism, it is how we all operate, whether we admit it or not.


You are, without doubt, correct for the largest part. However it is my experience that with patients in groups a) to d) it is usually helpful to discuss anxiety, provide factual information beyond that what was gleaned from Facebook/Instagram/Twitter, offer a vaccination there and then or appointment of the person's choice, offering to get Novavax when available, does encourage them to get vaccinated.
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By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892528
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
Paultheparaglider wrote:I guess you just need to find the right trigger.


Indeed.

Amongst those not vaccinated I discern a number of sub-groups (no doubt incomplete and deemed unjust by some):

a) anxious people
b) the misinformed
c) the 'haven't had time yet
d) those waiting for a vaccine not marketed yet
e) the entitled
f) hard line anti-vaccers - zealots
.


Frank, in which if any, of those groups would you put hospital consultants and medical professionals?
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By StratoTramp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1892530
I think I'm in 'e' - the "had the initial and first booster but now jog on - 70% reduction in hospitalisation is good enough, it's safe enough lets get back to it" entitled.

But glad for the nuance. :thumleft: Lumping a-e in anti-vax will not push a-e forward so it's good to have.

At a certain stage possibilities and chance loose their meaning, just as an example and not covid based. say a reduction in 1/4 from 1/2 compared to 1/4000000 and 1/2000000. Why do you need to half something that is already a 1/2000000 chance. 1/2000000 is enough.

Appreciate it isn't static but I don't see the point of a 70% (2nd booster) to 88% (3rd booster) reduction of hospitalisation of what is already a small chance in my demographic.

I still disagree with carrot and stick, they should just make the vaccine available. Carrot is morally better but people can still think "Why do I have to be bribed to take it - is performance on it's own not justification enough?". Stick makes people uppity - I think it can be effective short term but you can only lean on authority for so long.
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