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#1861908
There’s a difference between one measure and adifferent, more stringent one.

Deaths within 28 days of positive tests.
Total
113,807

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate
Total
131,170

AIUI the second one requires that Covid was a contributing factor to the death, (so not being run over by a bus), in the professional opinion of the certifier.
This data takes longer to collect and is typically 7 days behind the other one.
T6Harvard liked this
#1861938
Charles Hunt wrote:Javid may be considered a cretin by some, but ...


by whom ?

Without wishing to be in any way Partisan (of course)*, I admired him for resigning unhesitatingly as Chancellor when the PM's then Chief of Staff had his (Javid's) SpAd frogmarched out of Downing St and tried to insist that thenceforth all Ministers' SpAds had to have his (the CoS's) approval and to regard themselves as answerable to him rather than to their own Minister. No other SoS nor Minister did that. :thumright:

[*Mods: obviously, delete if judged inappropriate :oops: ]
Colonel Panic liked this
#1861941
skydriller wrote:..

kanga wrote:NSW Police seek military help in enforcing Sydney restrictions:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-29/ ... /100334878


I have a funny feeling that this may not end well in Oz. Time will tell.

....


Federal government agrees to NSW request: military to help enforce Sydney lockdown:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-58021718

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/ ... /100336124

lockdown enforcement felt as discriminatory in some suburbs:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/ ... /100335718

Premier warns against protests as likely to lead to further infection:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/ ... /100336208

Local modelling suggests lockdown may last until September because of flouting of distancing rules:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/ ... /100334562

Public Health England data being cited to encourage take-up of AZ, after reversal of Federal advice against it for younger:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/ ... /100334138
#1861948
USA: President "tells states to offer $100 vaccine incentive as cases rise":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-58020090

"US economic growth 'disappoints' as Covid surges":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58007120
#1861953
Europe: "Stalled Russian vaccines cause global anger" .. affecting Iran, Africa, Latin America at least:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58003893

[Cynical old Cold Warriors may wonder whether this explains recently exposed misinformation campaign trying to discredit Pfizer through social media 'influencers', campaign apparently linked to Russia (and exposed because some influencers would not comply, and blew the whistle :thumright: ) ]

RoI: Taoiseach "..says no jab needed to return to office .. praised the country's Covid-19 vaccine roll out .. "way ahead" of EU averages" ..:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58012631
#1861956
Things may be looking up in UK and much of rest of Europe, but 'no one is afe until everyone is safe" as someone (in WHO ? GAVI ?) said at beginning of the pandemic. In Asia (just a few from yesterday):

Japan: "Infections in Japan have been climbing for some weeks, and are approaching the levels seen during an earlier coronavirus surge in May. "

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/57556978

Israel: "..to give third jab to people aged over 60":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-58021386

China: "Nanjing: New virus outbreak worst after Wuhan, say Chinese state media":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-58021911

Myanmar: "Covid and a coup: The double crisis pushing Myanmar to the brink .. a surge in coronavirus cases fuelled by the highly infectious Delta variant has dealt the country a fresh blow. ":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-57993930
User avatar
By flybymike
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1861972
Jim Jones wrote:There’s a difference between one measure and adifferent, more stringent one.

Deaths within 28 days of positive tests.
Total
113,807

Deaths with COVID-19 on the death certificate
Total
131,170

AIUI the second one requires that Covid was a contributing factor to the death, (so not being run over by a bus), in the professional opinion of the certifier.
This data takes longer to collect and is typically 7 days behind the other one.

Jim, I’m probably failing to see something obvious here, but would not deaths for any reason within 28 days of a positive test also include those with Covid on the death certificate? In which case wouldn’t one expect the deaths for any reason figure to be higher than “certificated”deaths figure?
#1861983
flybymike wrote:.. would not deaths for any reason within 28 days of a positive test also include those with Covid on the death certificate? In which case wouldn’t one expect the deaths for any reason figure to be higher than “certificated”deaths figure?


some dying people presumably survive longer than 28 days from a positive test, but their ultimately fatal condition is so obviously linked to their infection that there is no clinical need to retest them ?
T6Harvard liked this
#1861987
@kanga when we have one or more of these...
71% had Hypertension (which of course may indicate other unseen problems)
48% had Diabetes mellitus
32% were BMI>30
32% had Chronic renal failure
28% had Ischemic heart disease
27% had Congestive heart failure
24% had Chronic lung disease
24% had Cancer
19% had Dementia
5% had Chronic liver disease
40% had Immunosuppression issues

... something is going to get us sooner than later.

While we usually prefer to delay the inevitable, life is always fatal.
flybymike liked this
#1861993
eltonioni wrote:..when we have one or more of these...
..
... something is going to get us sooner than later.

.. life is always fatal.


indeed :? ; but if Covid is mentioned on a Death Certificate (the statistics on which may sometimes be higher than the 'death within 28 days of a test' ones; which I was trying, in logic but ignorance :oops: , to explain), then presumably the doctor believed that the infection was to some extent at least one of the causative factors in that death at that time.

Happy, as ever, to be corrected by the better-informed. The apparent anomaly has been used by some on social media to claim that 'government' is deliberately and mischievously understating the number of Covid deaths, whereas other conspiracy theorists seem to claim that they are equally (and equally wickedly) being deliberately overstated. The impartial statisticians cannot win :roll:
Last edited by kanga on Fri Jul 30, 2021 6:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
johnm, MikeB liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1861996
How many times do we have to rehearse this? Deaths are very sad, but not the key statistic now anymore than they have been throughout.

BTW I took my first lateral flow test today, not a very pleasant experience and slightly fiddly to execute but happily negative.
#1862010
@kanga of course. Deliberate malfeasance would hopefully come out in the public enquiry.

Personal anecdote (not evidence); I know directly of two people who are really not happy that their relative's death was registered as a C19 death without a doctor visiting. The common denominator is care homes in the early days and both were quite ill and dying anyway. To me, these anecdotes are interesting but inconsequential in healthcare terms considering the profile of the people. More worrisome is how those deaths combine to give authority and power to the state which they might not actually need or can be trusted with.

Edited to add that Javid appears to be conducting his own little enquiry. Recent titbits like the numbers might be the start of a bit more transparency than Hancock's black-box approach. More three-dimensional thinking is certainly well overdue.
flybymike liked this
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