[Mz Hedy]

No, I am saying that vaccine passports have an inherently racist outcome. White folk get to sit in the theatre stalls, black folk get to clean out the toilet stalls.

I'm new to this thread (and forum) but I'd love an explanation of this assertion - or a link to where to find one.

[kanga]

I wonder who delivered the Delta variant

In NSW they may be wondering who was the international aircrew member (untraced, AFAIK), 'Patient 0', who infected the unvaccinated airport limo driver, 'Patient 1' (first there to be identified with the Delta, AFAIK)

[JAFO]

It is perfectly reasonable for people to decide that they do not wish to be vaccinated. It is then perfectly reasonable for them to be excluded from places where there will be a high density of other people. It's their choice.

The same as I can choose not to have a vaccination against Yellow Fever but, if I do that, I have to accept that there are certain countries I cannot visit.

[Flyingfemme]

But you also have the situation that people are allowed to smoke and get cancer, drink and kill their liver, kiss and pass on glandular fever, drive and get horrible injuries etc, etc. The NHS fixes them all without censure. We have also not frowned on people with coughs, colds, flu etc going to work, or visit granny, passing the bugs around. A bit of consistency would be nice.

[TopCat]

Tell it to the people that can't have vaccinations. Tell it to the people that have compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine doesn't work..

Ah yes, some of the other people who won't have a Covid Passport. Or work, shopping trips, foreign holidays, a trip to the pub...

Thanks for the help in making the case against.

This is a dishonest discursive tactic and the longer all this goes on, the less likely it seems to me that it's unintentionally so.

It's not even remotely making the case against. The whole point is that if enough people are vaccinated, and behave responsibly, cases will come down, immunity will rise to the point where outbreaks die out rather than taking hold (the very meaning of 'herd immunity'), and there's less chance of a vaccine-resistant variant that would take us all back to square one.

Once that's achieved, the vaccinated protect the cannot-be-vaccinated, and everyone can enjoy the same rights. It's the very antithesis of this 'two-tier' system that you seem so opposed to.

There's a word for this:

'Society'.

[Jim Jones]

Just to remind people re masks.

Most N95 masks do a good job of protecting the wearer, that is why healthcare staff in intensive care units, where the air is full of the exhalations of known Covid carrying patients, wear them.

Unfortunately outside of that environment they are worse than 3 layer cloth/paper masks,

Most have a valve that allow exhalation to be easier for the wearer, it is unfiltered; this creates a jet of exhaled air that travels further than the exhaled breath through a simpler mask. Those wearing them, who have no idea if they have Covid, are increasing the risk for everyone else.

If everyone wore N95, which require sizing and fitting to the individual, then we’d be safer. (They need changing ever four hours btw).

Wearing them in public is the equivalent to having your toilet soil pipe empty into the street.

[johnm]

I've said it before and I'll say it again:

All that matters is having a coherent strategy to manage risk:

Vaccination reduces the impact of known variants, so more people survive the disease with less impact on health service capacity

Minimising cases within the context of a functioning society implies minimising transmission therefore hygiene, masks and distance keeping wherever practicable is a good strategy. This supplements the role of vaccines and reduces the risk of a catastrophic variant appearing and it should be a requirement so that the more stupid and irresponsible can be constrained.

If entering a crowded environment proof of vaccine or negative test helps further minimise risk in that specific context

It's childishly simple yet people still try and get round it or pretend it isn't so, Heaven only knows why I'm still amazed how many apparently intelligent people are immune to facts and evidence, if not Covid

[TopCat]

I'm still amazed how many apparently intelligent people are immune to facts and evidence, if not Covid

It takes a smart person to cherry-pick the evidence and articulate that cherry-picking in such a way as to make manifest nonsense appear to have some kind of coherence.

If you have an ideological worldview that is strong enough, the alternative to doing the above can be to suffer from literally deranging cognitive dissonance.

So it's not that smart people are prone to crazy thinking, it's that if you're prone to crazy thinking, you have to be smarter than average to be able to justify it, even to yourself.

People that are able to fly aeroplanes are mostly smarter than average, so it's not surprising that if ideological nutcases also fly, they'll pop up here defending crazy stuff.

I should probably concede that we're probably all capable of being ideological nutcases when circumstances are right. Often it's relatively harmless (eg flat earth, young earth creationism).

It's just a bit of a bummer if it happens to coincide with something that's able to kill a lot of people.

[flybymike]

Great Post TC

Carp post TC.

[kanga]

France: restrictions, pass proposals, protests:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-57907678

[kanga]

USA: judge upholds University vaccine requirement:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-57905068

[kanga]

Australia: "Anger as half of Australians in lockdown again":

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-57911032

Cases from Victoria traveller now in Queensland, cargo vessel in Western Australia:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/ ... /100309814

Victoria turns back family moving from NSW:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/ ... /100310504

Further Delta spread in parts of Sydney; signs that 'vaccination hesitancy' reducing; indigenous vulnerabilities:

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-21/ ... /100311472

[eltonioni]

It is perfectly reasonable for people to decide that they do not wish to be vaccinated. It is then perfectly reasonable for them to be excluded from places where there will be a high density of other people. It's their choice.

The same as I can choose not to have a vaccination against Yellow Fever but, if I do that, I have to accept that there are certain countries I cannot visit.

Do you feel the same about Mountain Rescue or the RNLI not turning out because you had a plummet in a planet-destroying light aircraft? Either we have (or at least aspire to) an equal society, or we don't. There isn't really an in-between.

Most N95 masks...
...Wearing them in public is the equivalent to having your toilet soil pipe empty into the street.

A very fair point Jim. Folk can double mask N95 + repurposed pyjamas. I'm not promoting it, because it's a bit bonkers really so my only useful point is that if somebody is especially worried they can take personal responsibility for their own exposure and/or vulnerability re C19 without having the entire population pandering to their insecurities. Maybe that's a bit strong but it's a handy rhetoric to make the point.

Tell it to the people that can't have vaccinations. Tell it to the people that have compromised immune systems for whom the vaccine doesn't work..

Ah yes, some of the other people who won't have a Covid Passport. Or work, shopping trips, foreign holidays, a trip to the pub...

Thanks for the help in making the case against.

This is a dishonest discursive tactic...

Rather than calling me dishonest, or even a high functioning nutcase, I'd appreciate you actually commenting on the available data and situations, because as limited as information may be they are crystal clear. From the data I see and from previous patterns I have a hunch that in a couple of weeks there will be wails of indignation at crowds on beaches and in nightclubs along with much talk of long covid, but an absence of superspreader events with case numbers going down and hospitals not filling up. Old and vulnerable people will still be the ones in hospital and funeral parlours, with young and healthy being exceptions that prove the rule. Let's see eh?

By the way, please stick to building arguments that are more compelling than "it's obvious innit" as it's a carp debate and your follow-on ad-hominems are both tedious and wrong no matter how many likes you get from the gallery of fellow travellers. Let's touch base in a few weeks.

[TopCat]

Ah yes, some of the other people who won't have a Covid Passport. Or work, shopping trips, foreign holidays, a trip to the pub...

Thanks for the help in making the case against.

This is a dishonest discursive tactic...

Rather than calling me dishonest, or even a high functioning nutcase, I'd appreciate you actually commenting on the available data and situations, because as limited as information may be they are crystal clear. From the data I see and from previous patterns I have a hunch that in a couple of weeks there will be wails of indignation at crowds on beaches and in nightclubs along with much talk of long covid, but an absence of superspreader events with case numbers going down and hospitals not filling up.

Moving the goalposts is another dishonest discursive tactic.

You can have all the hunches you like, but the fact is, hospitalisations are going up, so is ICU occupancy, and so are deaths. And if you can't see that, you're either wilfully ignoring, cherry-picking, or deliberately misrepresenting the data.

I can't tell which it is from the available evidence.

Things may be different in a few weeks time; the kids are on holiday for a while, so that source of mixing will be temporarily absent. But with restrictions more or less gone, there's a lot more scope for people to spread it indoors.

As you say, we'll see. But it's not looking good to me.

[johnm]

Just visited wine merchant, Waitrose and finally bookshop (you know why ) mask wearing and sanitiser strongly in evidence at all 3 so essentially not much has changed, though I suspect the one "nightclub" in Cirencester might have re-opened but since it's for those between the ages of 18 and 25 AFAIK I haven't investigated.

Tomorrow we have the first in person Probus in many months and mask wearing and distancing to restaurant standards will be the order of the day.

Saturday a BBQ for 50 in farmer's orchard with a very big tent just in case.....