[eltonioni]

Nobody believes the Telegraph anymore do they??? I'm old enough to remember when it was a serious newspaper but that stopped decades ago...

Yawn. You really have taken leave of the ability to view opinions that don't agree with your own. However, here is the article in question. Feel free to provide your own working out.

People who are vaccinated against Covid are highly unlikely to die of the virus unless they are very old and already ill, a study in Italy has shown.

The data adds more pressure on the UK Government to speed up the booster programme for protecting double jabbed older and vulnerable people who will be beginning to lose immunity.

Analysis by the Italian National Health Institute, which looked at deaths in the country between Feb 1 and Oct 5, showed major disparities in people who were dying from Covid after being fully jabbed.

It found the average age of death in the vaccinated was 85, and that on average each person had five underlying illnesses when they caught Covid. In contrast, the average age of death among the unvaccinated was 78, with those people having four pre-existing conditions on average.

Cases of heart problems, dementia and cancer were all found to be higher in the sample of deaths among those vaccinated.


During the study period, there were 38,096 Covid deaths in Italy, among which 33,620 were unvaccinated, 2,130 had received only a single dose or were infected shortly after inoculation before antibodies had formed, and 1,440 were fully vaccinated.

"The results presented here clearly indicate that people who died after completing the vaccination course have a high level of clinical complexity, significantly higher than people who could not benefit because they haven't even started the vaccination course," the study concluded.

"It is possible to hypothesise that very elderly patients with numerous diseases may have a reduced immune response and therefore be susceptible to SARS-CoV-2 infection and its complications despite having been vaccinated.

"These very fragile persons with a reduced immune response are those who can benefit most from a broad vaccination coverage of the entire population, as this would further reduce the risk of infection."

It comes as new data from Scottish researchers showed vaccination was more than 90 per cent effective in preventing deaths from the delta variant.


Researchers analysed data from 5.4 million people in Scotland between April 1 and Sep 27 this year. They found the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine was 90 per cent effective and the Oxford-AstraZeneca vaccine 91 per cent effective in preventing deaths in people who have been double vaccinated.

The results, published in the New England Journal of Medicine, are the first to show across an entire country how effective vaccines are at preventing death from delta.

Prof Aziz Sheikh, the director of the University of Edinburgh's Usher Institute, said: "With the delta variant now the dominant strain in many places worldwide and posing a higher risk of hospitalisation than previous variants seen in the UK, it is reassuring to see that vaccination offers such high protection from death very shortly after the second dose."

Prof Chris Robertson, of the University of Strathclyde and Public Health Scotland, said: "Our findings are encouraging in showing that the vaccine remains an effective measure in protecting both ourselves and others from death from the most dominant variant of Covid-19."

The latest data from Public Health England shows that the death rate is three times higher for unvaccinated under-50s. Imperial College has also found that the risk of catching Covid is also far less among vaccinated people.

The most recent prevalence data found 1.76 per cent of unvaccinated people were found to have the virus, or one in 56. Prevalence among fully vaccinated people in the three months after their second jab was around one in 285.

However, between three and six months it rose to one in 181 – a 57 per cent increase, showing the importance of a booster jab.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/1 ... dy-infirm/

It's essentially saying the same as the Israeli study from earlier this year. HMG still aren't publishing breakdowns of UK stats but it seems reasonable to assume that the UK is no different.

I still can't comprehend why HMG isn't publishing though, they must have the info at their fingertips and it seems a much better way of convincing people to get jabbed than by coercive methods being used and promoted for future use.

[skydriller]

The underlying issue is moving from legal requirement for masks in crowded indoor spaces to personal discretion. But any shop or church or other premises can make masks a condition of entry if they so choose.

Complacency usually follows from lack of leadership as people lack clear guidance and direction.

In some of the supermarkets I visit, and we are legally required to wear them here, almost half of the shelf stackers don't wear them. Now, it might be that Tesco and others have recently taken on a lot of staff with medical reasons for not wearing masks, but I doubt it.
Leadership from store management is clearly lacking.
The more people see others breaking the rules, the more start following suit.

Just ask yourself why mask wearing was made "optional" in England. Then ask yourself why the wee pixie decided to be different north of the border.

Anybody that has had to spend time wearing any kind of protective mask for reasons other than “C19 rules” in the workplace and has had to do any HSE training wrt that mask’s properties and how they actually work knows that the previous/current “trend” for masks to be worn is “C19 symbolism” as opposed to a practical measure to prevent infection of the general population, especially considering the way that the masses use masks.

Regards, SD..

[Robin500]

I agree. Unless it has a proper seal and is at least FP2 they're next to useless. As far as I'm concerned it's virtue signalling ,and there to have a visual impact to maintain some form of awareness.

[Paul_Sengupta]

Just ask yourself why mask wearing was made "optional" in England.

There are various theories from populist reasons ("people don't like wearing them") to the theory that they want everyone to catch covid now to build up herd immunity.

The change in Covid attitude pretty much came from Sajid Javid, who is a keen businessman who seems to want to put business ahead of health.

Then ask yourself why the wee pixie decided to be different north of the border.

Wales too.

Probably because they are more "socialist" and are more concerned about the health of the people.

Some while back one of the "masks don't work" brigade posted some links to prove his point. I had a look. One of the "masks don't work" studies showed that they were only 50% effective. Personally I think that's pretty good! That's a change of R number from, say 1.2 to 0.6.

I agree. Unless it has a proper seal and is at least FP2 they're next to useless.

I'm surprised that after all this time people don't realise that the mask isn't to protect the wearer in a medical situation, they're to protect everyone else from the wearer, where they're far from useless.

Of course adult to adult transmission is far less than school child to school child.

[Flyingfemme]

The change in Covid attitude pretty much came from Sajid Javid, who is a keen businessman who seems to want to put business ahead of health.

Without functioning business there is no health. No food delivery, no power, no water. No jobs and no taxes. The economy has taken a hell of a kicking over the past couple of years. We risk all small businesses just giving up. I'm very glad I am no longer young and don't have to consider growing a business for the rest of my life!

[skydriller]

As with pretty much all C19 legislation over the last year and a half around the world, its all politics. If you seriously believe the decisions that have been taken wrt rules are because "socialists care more about the people" then you are deluded. France has a far more socialist outlook than Scotland or Wales and look at the track record of decisions about covid rules here.

And please read ALL I wrote about mask use in terms of C19 protection. I have had to use various masks in various settings at work. Its not just about the masks being used "in the battle against Covid" or the "protecting others" angle, its about how it is used. Just have a look around at the chin straps, the guy with the single use paper mask that hes had for a week, the fidgiters etc. etc. Its a complete joke and the govt and their advisors know it - they have even said it on a few interviews in terms of "possibly up to 10 or 20% effective at protecting others if worn correctly" which Im astounded doesnt get picked up on by the media.

But hey, I still wear a mask in a French Supermarket because its the law, and Im a generally law abiding citizen - just dont tell me Im protecting either myself or anyone else in the shop when I do so, because that is bolleaux.

Regards, SD..

Edit : @Flyingfemme , I think Paul wrote your quote above, not me.

[Robin500]

"I'm surprised that after all this time people don't realise that the mask isn't to protect the wearer in a medical situation, they're to protect everyone else from the wearer, where they're far from useless.

I get that, and I partially agree. To the extent they would likely prevent or reduce droplets being spread around when a wearer coughs or sneezes. But take Scotland, they have maintained masks in indoor public spaces, throughout. Has it reduced transmission, no.
Personally, I hate the things and will not wear one unless it is mandated again.

[StratoTramp]

It is all a manipulation. The vaccination rates look lower now but only because they have included over 12s now. I think someone was saying earlier 5 million unvaccinated but it would be interesting to see of that includes the above.

The EU said AZ wasn't safe, for political point scoring... then nicked a load. After they had let their misinformation do untold damage increasing vacinne hesitancy around the world.

All the various bs and goal post moving filters down and results in the wide range of opinion people have. Mine is basically unchanged get vacinated, get back to it, no to vax passports, I don't care if other people are vacinated. So it means I probably have at least one lever of shared opinion with most say even if you want Vax passports.

Sure it's been done to death. But I don't think people will tolerate another lockdown. What was the point of vaccination. "Save this" to "save that" repeatedly. Build back bluster.

If they start doing it for flu where does it end. The NHS has never not been in crisis at winter. I think Guido had a collection of "winter crisis" headlines from various papers for the past 30+ years.

There's a "blue crisis" now. Akzo Nobel say It's difficult to get the pigment required.

I'm going to keep striving for the old normal, even if it means being stuck in traffic for a while and having to queue in the canteen. both busiest they ever been for 2 years this morning I think. Need to collect all those taxes from economic growth for the NHS like Flyingfemme says otherwise it can't exist.

[johnm]

If we discount places where the irresponsible congregate in close proximity, there's not really a serious trade off between business and health except where there ends up being sufficient sickness in the workforce to cause a shortage of resources to get the job done.

In the majority of cases, cleanliness and mask wearing to reduce aerosol and droplet distribution coupled with vaccination and testing/isolation is enough to manage the spread to levels where the risk to NHS capacity is manageable.

Unfortunately we haven't been wearing masks, we were slow off the mark in vaccinating secondary school pupils and now we are paying the price.

[StratoTramp]

In covid terms we may pay the price. But covid is not the only cost that needs to be considered. I think I've said way back that covid victims do not have a monopoly on suffering.

Im not entirely sure whether covid caused a shortage in the workplace or the pingdemic did. Unlike covid, Blu-tooth signals can travel through walls and glass. It was like carpet bombing. No precision.

It's almost as if people have forgotten that the vaccinations ever took place when calling for restrictions again.

[Paultheparaglider]

Without functioning business there is no health. No food delivery, no power, no water. No jobs and no taxes. The economy has taken a hell of a kicking over the past couple of years. We risk all small businesses just giving up. I'm very glad I am no longer young and don't have to consider growing a business for the rest of my life!

I completely agree with this. We need to do everything we can to support business, and if me wearing a mask in the shops can help reduce the spread of the virus then I'm happy to do that. Whether the risk reduction is 50% or 10%, and even if some wear them incorrectly, it just isn't a big imposition.

It isn't covid virtue signalling, just a recognition that this is a numbers game and every little helps. It is a simple measure that plays a small part.

If I were asked to wear full protective gear to go shopping I would agree it was over the top. But, a simple mask? It just is not a big deal. I don't like wearing it, but it is hardly a big reduction of freedom.

The snowflakes who don't bother to wear them are the virtue signallers if you ask me. Standing up for all our rights. And, at the same time forgetting that freedom always comes with responsibility.

How do you know the person next to you in the supermarket isn't immuno compromised and can't be vaccinated? Where is his freedom to shop? According to @eltonioni he needs to be locked up and given free Waitrose deliveries.

And all the people downplaying the deaths because they all had so many comorbidities that the decent thing was to finish them off anyway conveniently miss the point that many on the front line like @Flyin'Dutch' and @Cessna571 's sister are warning that a lot of people are getting very ill and needing a lot of care to keep them out of the death stats. I guess it doesn't matter as long as they recover just so long as I don't need to suffer any minor inconvenience.

The sad thing is that is precisely these self focused and selfish attitudes that are going to hit industry even harder in the long run.

Anyway, after that big rant I'm off to stick a steak on the Weber, pour a glass of red, and be thankful that I haven't yet been one of the statistics mentioned in the NHS numbers.

My wife tells me there is an old Chinese proverb that says people rarely understand the pain of the prick of a needle until it happens to them. I tell her that pilots are trained to learn from the mistakes of others. As always, she is more right than me.

[Paul_Sengupta]

the guy with the single use paper mask that hes had for a week, the fidgiters etc. etc.

I don't think that actually matters that much. The mask will still slow down and stop droplets which he exhales ,and as for touching the mask, that's why we have hand sanitiser at the supermarket, so you have a fighting chance of killing the virus.

"possibly up to 10 or 20% effective at protecting others if worn correctly" which I'm astounded doesn't get picked up on by the media.

Well, even the negative studies I've read say about 50% but even if it were only 20%, if it stops even 20 people a day dying then it has to be worth it doesn't it?

GA in the UK claims around 25 people a year and we go through extraordinary measures to try and reduce that.

But take Scotland, they have maintained masks in indoor public spaces, throughout. Has it reduced transmission, no.

Well, we don't really know what it would be otherwise. We know a large crowd went to London for the foodball and brought Covid back! We also know that the main conduit are unvaccinated school children, so maybe the mask thing gets lost in the noise.

[eltonioni]

Paul, GA is inherently dangerous, lethal even, to everyone taking part.

Covid isn't.

[JAFO]

But take Scotland, they have maintained masks in indoor public spaces, throughout. Has it reduced transmission, no.

Take a look at the map of cases: Scotland is mainly blue with patches of purple, England is mainly purple with patches of blue. Of course, I can't definitely say that's due to masks but something makes the transmission rates different in the two countries. What other measures might have led to that?

[OCB]

But take Scotland, they have maintained masks in indoor public spaces, throughout. Has it reduced transmission, no.

Take a look at the map of cases: Scotland is mainly blue with patches of purple, England is mainly purple with patches of blue. Of course, I can't definitely say that's due to masks but something makes the transmission rates different in the two countries. What other measures might have led to that?

Not at all trying to pick apart or affirm anyone's argument or observations here - just saying that various "non short term policy" parameters such as population density, maybe differing levels of social interaction and culturally rooted affinity (or lack of) to order versus personal freedoms may also be at play - rather than just "policy"?